[Avodah] Revenge and Punishment

[Zev Sero]

Micha Berger wrote:

> You are confusing the need for justice with revenge.

Revenge *is* justice.


> We say Hashem yiqom
> damo and thereby take revenge out of the hands of people who can feel
> vengeful and elevate it to HQBH's hanhagah of the universe.

Where do you get that?  We say HYD because we're not able to.


> "Keil qanah"
> no more refers to revenge than Av haRachamim refers to actually feelings
> of mercy.

But when we ask Him for mercy we mean it literally.  And when we ask Him
for vengeance we mean it just as literally.


> This is why writing VelaMeshumadim, the berakhah that evolved into
> VelaMalshinim required Rabban Gamliel to find the one person capable of
> writing it.

They were still Yehudim.


> All this ties back to your denial (2-1/2 years ago) of the position of a
> dozen or so baalei mesorah about Chatzi Hallel on the 7th day of Pesach
> and "maasei Yadai tov'im bayam, ve'atem omerim shirah?"

I reject it because the gemara in Megillah *explicitly* rejects it, and
attributes this shita to Haman Harasha, in opposition to Mordechai's
shita.  


> The drowning of the Egyptians is an event that all of the above tell us
> to face with ambivalence.

And the gemara tells us explicitly *not* to.


> If you could accept that rov acharonim follow maamarei Chazal that call
> for us regretting the need for our enemies to die

That is not true at all.  Even those who quote it don't necessarily agree
with it, and they do *not* constitute anything like a rov.


> you wouldn't have
> this notion that we want or like revenge. Our simulatenous joy at seeing
> justice restores to the world doesn't qualify as vengeful.

If that were true, we would pray for "tzedek", not for "nekama".
We would say "Hashem yishpot", not "yikom". 

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher