[Avodah] reform and conservative

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 10:49:20AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 1186. One may not count one who denies the truth of Torah Sh'baal Peh
: - aka The Oral Torah (and certainly one who denies The Written Torah
: received at Sinai via Moshe Rabbeinu) towards a minyan. [One may not
: count Conservative or Reform Jews towards a minyan.] Shulchan Aruch
: w/Mishnah Berurah 55:11, Piskei Tshuvos 55:21

First, I would presume the phrase in brackets is only providing a rule of
thumb, and if you did know that this particular Jew did believe in Torah
miSinai, you could count him. However, when you don't know the person's
beliefs, one can assume the individual who is affiliated C does not.

I also know C rabbis who are essentially Deist (believe that G-d created
the world and let it run). Having a skeptical attitude toward nissim
will push more people in that direction.

The second question may well be shemiras Shabbos, because its violation
is tantamount to kefirah. One *might* argue, though, that someone who
actually followed C law WRT Shabbos was not mechalel Shabbos to that
extent.

The issue came up in elementary school. The school hired a non-O secular
studies teacher, and the teacher chose to come early every day and join
us for minchah before class. The hanhalah was tactful about it, but one
day a couple of the 8th grades were out, and he would have been our tenth.
The hanhalah didn't count him, and called up someone who works nearby.

My father ended up asking the menahel about that decision. Seems they
follow the Satmar Rav, who would not count a tinoq shenishba (TSN) toward
a minyan. That's a childhood memory, obviously I didn't retain a source.

As for the sources lehaqeil, see RDE's post of 24-Jun-2005
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol15/v15n038.shtml#11 he cites the IM
(OC 1:23, 2:19, 3:14), and Tefillah Kehilkhasah, and TK in turn cites
the Chakham Tzevi and the Meishiv Dovor, and other acharonim (RDE just
leaves a "...")

We are nohagim like the IM, at least non-chassidim and L do. (As in my
story above, it's clear that there are other chassidim hold like the SR,
which is kedarkam baqodesh.)

Perhaps RET's daily email comes from someone not in a kehillah where
RMF carried as much weight?

RMF, however, excludes C and R rabbis and cantors from the category of
TSN, his statement was only about the masses. As I usually add in this
recurring discussion, I'm not sure he would have still said so today,
a generation removed. I have some idea of what's taught at JTSA today,
and am not sure they fit RMF's description. They are taught many things,
but not that much of what we call Torah. In fact, in the mid-90s, when
I last checked, they had more required hours of bible criticism than of
shas or halakhah.

OTOH, RMF must have meant this as a rule of thumb when you don't know the
individual. Because in cases where RMF knew the C rabbi was personally
observant, he did accept him as an eid. I can't picture a rationale that
would accept him as kasher le'eidus, but a kofeir WRT minyan.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
micha at aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke