[Avodah] some halachot of moser

[Zev Sero]

Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>>
>> The Ramo permits the *victim* of a violent crime to masser his
>> assailant.  I'm not sure that other people are included in this heter.
> 
> I don't understand why you would think that possibly only the victim can 
> report his assailant to the secular authorities.

Because that's all the Rama says (at the end of se'if 7).   He doesn't
say anything about other people being allowed to inform on an assailant,
but he also doesn't say anything about the crime having to be regular
or habitual.  It seems to me just from the Rama's words that this may
be a privilege granted to the victim of an assault, because ein adam
nitpas al tzaaro.


> *Maharach Ohr Zarua^ **(#142): … * [...] this will lead to murder.
> It is therefore  not only the victim who is allowed to file a
> complaint with the secular authorities, but it is in fact a mitzva
> for everyone to report to the judge that Reuven hit Shimon [...] so
> the situation will not escalate. [...]

This is something of a different situation, where we're trying to
prevent future assaults.  It seems to me from the Rama's language
that the heter for a victim isn't limited to such a situation; but if
so, then it makes sense that it *is* limited to the victim himself.


> If the assailant is someone who regularly hits others and has done
> it repeatedly and openly – and from his actions it is clear that he
> will beat up anyone who disagrees with him – then it is a clear
> mitzva for every Jew to report him [...]

This is another thing yet again; it seems to be what the Mechaber
says openly in se'if 12, that "kol hameitzer et harabim" is more
severe than doing it to an individual, and he may be handed over.


> Whoever is involved in improper behavior or with non‑Jewish women or
> with anything which might bring harm to the community – if the
> community warns him to stop and he doesn’t listen – it is permitted
> to inform on him

And this would be what the Rama says in se'if 12, that a coiner may
be informed on, before he gets caught and the whole community suffers.
(This does *not* mean what people have been talking about lately,
that the reputation of O Jews has suffered, and people are slightly
more reluctant to do business with us.  In the Rama's time, if a Jewish
coiner was caught and the community had known about it and not handed
him over, they might all be killed or expelled, or suffer some other
severe punishment.)



> *Sema (C.M. 388:30)*:This that the abuser is not reported to the
> secular authorities is only when he is verbally abusive to the
> individual but if he causes financial loss and surely if he beats
> him or causes bodily suffering it is permitted to report him to the
> secular authorities as is stated in the Rema and the Darchei Moshe.

Sorry, you've mistranslated the Sema in several places.  There is
nothing in the Sema about "verbally abusive", or "causes financial
loss".   The Sema is commenting on the distinction between one who
causes distress to the community and to an individual, and the fact
that it is forbidden to inform on one who causes distress to an
individual; he points out that in order to reconcile this statement
with what was written earlier in the same siman this must be talking
about "mere distress" (*not* just "verbal"), but if the person has
informed on an individual, or has physically assaulted him, that
goes beyond "tzaar de'alma".   I doubt that someone who is merely
verbally abusive to a community may be informed on; this "tzaar"
that justifies mesirah only if the victim is a community must surely
go beyond mere words, but not so far as a mesirah or a physical assault.


 
> If this is based on din of not standing idly by the blood of your
> fellow. [...] If it is an aspect of rodef

But I don't think the Rama we're discussing, in se'if 7, *is* based
on either of these things.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher