[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:58 AM, <T613K at aol.com> wrote:

>
> >>>>>
> Non-recognition of Reform and Conservative RABBIS and MOVEMENTS is austritt
> of the first degree, and that is what I'm concerned about.
>

I agree

>
> Non-recognition of Orthodox rabbis who reject first-degree austritt is
> second degree austritt.
>
>
I agree  Icall it asutritt squared


> Nobody seems to advocate that in America anymore, for various reasons.
>

I don't agree. YU , OU< RCA have been shunned DAVKA because of some dgre of
co-ioepration with R's an C's.  with regard to both military and hospital
types of chaplaincy such co-operation is indispensable. It simply works that
way.  And you seem to suggst in an earlier post that it can be avoided. It
is virtually impossiblei



>   Partly it has to do with the totally different communal structure we have
> in America vs Germany, where there is no one united community anyway and no
> one rav who is the authority of the community.  To reject the authority of
> Rav Hirsch or his successor /in Frankfurt/ would be the height of chutzpa,
> and to many it would be literally unforgivable.    No rav in America holds
> such a communal position.
>

What we do her imn America is NOT related to Hirschian Austritt



>
> Personally I advocate austritt of the first degree but not of the second
> degree, partly because that is the position that my father and other
> advocates of austritt held and partly because it is quite literally
> impossible to carry out a policy of austritt in the second degree -- you
> would have to be a hermit living in a cave.
>

But that was Hirsches point. rmember [3rd time] an Austritt butcher in
Frnakfort ws not awaere of "frum Geminde O's until he went out of town on
vacation. Shortly before his passing he reported this story to me and said
it was "wrong" in a very stern Yekke way. To be shut-off rom frum
Talmud-loving Observant Jews in the same town was wrong. It was doubly so in
teh Nazi era.




>
> BTW I don't remember my father ever using the word "austritt" and I am
> using it rather loosely as a short-hand way of saying "Don't give C and R
> rabbis or their movements any public recognition as rabbis or as movements
> within Judaism."  If somebody can come up with a better word please let me
> know.
>

But hat is not a Hirschian model


>
>   *
> *
> *--Toby Katz
> =============
>
> *
>

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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