[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[T613K at aol.com]

From: "Richard Wolpoe" _rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com_ 
(mailto:rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com) 


RRW:  >> And didn't NCSY evolve out
of  looking at USY for alternative ideas of what to do?<<

 
TK:  No, I don't believe so.  My father was one of the founders  of NCSY in 
the fifties.  But let's say theoretically that some C  congregation came up 
with a good idea -- like, say, a way to save money on air  conditioning.  What 
would be the austritt objection to copying that  idea?  Hirsch gave sermons and 
wrote books in German.  Is there a  problem with that?

 
 
 
RRW:  >>   3. Working with Non-O's does not  necessarily convey any 
legitimacy. {see
below]  The Red Sox  come to Yankee Stadium, does any Yankee Fan have
any desire to  Ausrtitt   the hated enemy by not letting him to play in   the
very Holy of Holies that is Yankee Stadium!   <<
 
TK:  This is a particularly ill-chosen analogy since it does imply  that O 
and C are just two different home teams, eilu ve'elu.  How about  having Yankee 
Stadium host a game between the Yankees and the Nuclear Weapons  Engineers of 
Iran?  That would be a better analogy.
 
 
 
 
 
RRW: >>   4. Austritt has brought out such convoluted  situations such  that 
two
noted Roshei Yeshiva who were  "buddies" in Poland [either roommates of
havrusas I forget  which] - and then lived about 0.5 a miles away from
each other  in the USA - but would not even talk to each other merely  because
of Austritt. Is Austritt a frontal assault on eilu  v'eilu? <<
 
TK: You have a specialized historical knowledge of particular situations in  
the past which may or may not have been justified but have nothing to do with  
the proper policy to be followed today by religious Jews.
 
 
 
 RRW:  >>   6. Didn't the deaths Talmidei R.  Akiva teach us a bit about the 
danger of
lack of mutual respect?  {at least between Austritt O's and non-Austritt
O's]<<
 
TK:  This is no longer an issue.  Re-fighting old historical  battles is of 
interest, perhaps, to scholars of history.  The only  practical issue today is 
whether O Jews should treat C and R as in  some way legitimate "streams" of 
Judaism.
 
 

RRW:  >>  7. No Ta'anis Tzibbur can exist without  a Rasha. It seems that 
throwing
Resha'im out is a new idea.  <<
 
TK:  Again, you seem to be rehashing old historical battles.  In  today's 
world no Orthodox synagogue will refuse to seat a non-observant Jew (and  most 
non-observant Jews are not, in any case, reshaim).  
 
 
 
RRW:  >>At the Seder we remonstrate with them, but  we
don't evict them. <<
 
TK:  We knock them on the teeth.  Works for me.
 
 
RRW:  >> Is having the Rasha
at the Seder  legitimizing his life-style? we let him join in and if he
geahves we don't even start up with him, only when he brings up leitzanus  we
push back.<<
 
TK:  Again you are fighting old battles, from Frankfurt and maybe from  old 
Washington Heights, that I am not qualified to fight.  All I know  is that in 
today's world the advocates of austritt welcome non-frum Jews to  their sedarim 
with open arms.  But a joint seder led by an O and a C rabbi,  or an O seder 
in a C sanctuary,  would be a horrible idea, against the  halacha and very 
harmful from a public policy point of view.
 
You have also alluded in the past to particular policy battles fought  
between Breuer's and YU.  While my sympathies are mainly with Breuer's, I  have not 
seen in practice, and certainly not in my father's life, a blanket  rejection 
of YU outside of that localized community tension.  I note that  many products 
nowadays have both a KAJ and an OU on the label so I guess that  particular 
fight is over -- as there is a close association between YU and  the OU (many 
or most OU rabbanim having smicha from YU).  Of course there  will continue to 
be areas of serious hashkafic  disagreements.




--Toby Katz
=============

President  Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead with the 
deployment of Cruise  and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly — after 
getting himself a  bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




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