[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:52 PM, <T613K at aol.com> wrote:

>
>    below]  The Red Sox come to Yankee Stadium, does any Yankee Fan have
>    any desire to Ausrtitt   the hated enemy by not letting him to play in
> the
>    very Holy of Holies that is Yankee Stadium!  <<
>
> TK:  This is a particularly ill-chosen analogy since it does imply that O
> and C are just two different home teams, eilu ve'elu.  How about having
> Yankee Stadium host a game between the Yankees and the Nuclear Weapons
> Engineers of Iran?  That would be a better analogy.
>

So R & C jews are as evil as Iranians silamo-Fasicists.
that puts a different spin onth Holcoasut. This implies that mostly resh'
a'im got killed and we should be clebrating not mournin

thsi si agood reason to show how Austritt demonizes fellow Jews. It's a
GREAT illustration.

OR as an Aushwitz survivor [a yeeke{] once told me we are our OWN worse
enemies.[not his owrds but hsi words were worse]  KINDA sad



>
>
>
>
> RRW: >>   4. Austritt has brought out such convoluted situations such  that
> two
>    noted Roshei Yeshiva who were "buddies" in Poland [either roommates of
>    havrusas I forget which] - and then lived about 0.5 a miles away from
>    each other in the USA - but would not even talk to each other merely
> because
>    of Austritt. Is Austritt a frontal assault on eilu v'eilu? <<
>
> TK: You have a specialized historical knowledge of particular situations in
> the past which may or may not have been justified but have nothing to do
> with the proper policy to be followed today by religious Jews.
>
>

NO I am describing a mindse3t that ican and is being used for sin'as HInam
between Rabanim.

See tomorrow's Daf [Sota 48b} fro what happens when 2 rabbonim live in the
same town and refuse to share torah. My illustratoin above is based 100% on
Austritt and I will nto name names but it is a real issue.




>
>
>  RRW:  >>   6. Didn't the deaths Talmidei R. Akiva teach us a bit about the
> danger of
>    lack of mutual respect? {at least between Austritt O's and non-Austritt
>    O's]<<
>
> TK:  This is no longer an issue.  Re-fighting old historical battles is of
> interest, perhaps, to scholars of history.  The only practical issue today
> is whether O Jews should treat C and R as in some way legitimate "streams"
> of Judaism.
>

No austritt is about shunning Orthodx jews who fail to practice Austritt.
You keep on ignring this slaient fact and PRESUME that Austritt is ONLY
about shunning C's and R's it's not. You are NOT fdescribing Austritt!

Austritt meant COMPLETELY shuunning Geminder Orthodox their kashrus their
learning etc.



>
>
>
>  RRW:  >>  7. No Ta'anis Tzibbur can exist without a Rasha. It seems that
> throwing
>    Resha'im out is a new idea. <<
>
> TK:  Again, you seem to be rehashing old historical battles.  In today's
> world no Orthodox synagogue will refuse to seat a non-observant Jew (and
> most non-observant Jews are not, in any case, reshaim).
>

That's not my point. Austritti s saying Resh'aim of ISrael are not really
jews. Read your Iran statement  above


>
>
>
> RRW:  >>At the Seder we remonstrate with them, but we
>    don't evict them. <<
>
> TK:  We knock them on the teeth.  Works for me.
>

Only whnethey open thie mouth. but they are at the Seder.
You have steadfastly refused to allow any interaction because it confers
legitimacy. But you contradict yourself if you DO interact with a Rash oat
the Seder

BTW, Hakheh does NOT  mean knock out but set on edge or sour
the poitn of the SEDER is ANTI-Austrit, it is saying debate the Rasha and
prove him wrong not shun him!I




>
>
> RRW:  >> Is having the Rasha
>    at the Seder legitimizing his life-style? we let him join in and if he
>    geahves we don't even start up with him, only when he brings up
> leitzanus we
>    push back.<<
>
> TK:  Again you are fighting old battles, from Frankfurt and maybe from old
> Washington Heights, that I am not qualified to fight.
>
the what you are sying is NOT Austritt but something else



> All I know is that in today's world the advocates of austritt welcome
> non-frum Jews to their sedarim with open arms.
>

Again it is not Austritt



> But a joint seder led by an O and a C rabbi, or an O seder in a C
> sanctuary,  would be a horrible idea, against the halacha and very harmful
> from a public policy point of view.
>

RYBS was aggaisnt this. So is YU. YU co-oeprated onthe Chalaincy board and
save RW yeshivos from sending  Semciha studetns ot Korea etc. and the RW
yeshivos won't even acknowleldge that nowaedays [they used to back in the
late 1950's etc.]



>
> You have also alluded in the past to particular policy battles fought
> between Breuer's and YU.  While my sympathies are mainly with Breuer's, I
> have not seen in practice, and certainly not in my father's life, a blanket
> rejection of YU outside of that localized community tension.
>

When I ws at Ner Isrel I haeard all kinds of negative coments re: YU and
RYBS was never quoted as a gadol




>   I note that many products nowadays have both a KAJ and an OU on the label
> so I guess that particular fight is over -- as there is a close association
> between YU and the OU (many or most OU rabbanim having smicha from YU).  Of
> course there will continue to be areas of serious hashkafic disagreements.
>
>
> *--Toby Katz
> =============
> *
>

To summarize:

   1. Meetings  at secular events [NOT AT A SEDER] with non-O clergy does
   not confer legitimacy. This is an old battle and is obsolete. It only
   confers de facto reality no more than their being a shul presiident or to
   non-Jewish Clergy.  Fro example at Soveit Jewry Rallies non_jewish clergy
   spoek and so did non-O Rabbis. Does not mean that we can ride to shul the
   next shabos.
   2. Austritt is as much about shunning non-Austirrt Ortho's as shunning
   C's and R's. See the Rav Breuer bio re: Teh petirah of Rabbi Nobel
   3. I wil BEH post more on this but quickly siad I poist here and now that
   Austritt has succeed in snuffin out TIDE everywhere it is seriously
   practiced




Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080711/d2e85ed0/attachment-0002.htm>