[Avodah] Halachic Texts: More Background

Mon Jul 7 20:33:11 PDT 2008

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 12:07:46AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> :> Give me a rigorous definition of "new enough" that allows for ther
> Rambam
> :> and not the Gra.
>
> : I already did!. Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 25 wherein the mechabeir
> : insisted that to'eh bidvar mishneh included posqim...
>
> But that does NOT exclude the Gra. The Gra, each and every time he rules
> against minhag, has a reason to say that the minhag was based on a ta'us
> bidevar mishnah. He didn't overturn accepted pesaq just because he had a
> batter sevara, it was only when he felt that the accepted pesaq was wrong.

The GRA did not jsut rule against minhag he ruled against widely accepted
P'sak. This is tantamount to What R. Eliezer Hagaodl did with his rayos. I
fail to see any hilluk in how the GRA rejected the consensus of Posqim and
Rabbi Eliezer rejecting the consensus of his peers.

>
>
> E.g.
> - Making baqashos after benching (the "harachaman"s) on Shabbos

good point but this is NOT a psaq

>
> - Having MORE portions instead of fewer for the sake of lechem oni (an
>  oxymoron, no? particularly since mishneh lechem on YT is itself iffy)

Not when it fallssis Friday night See Behag

>
> - Adding a proof from Zecharia at the end of a Aleinu, attributed to
>  Yehoshua bin Nun (implies a rejection of that mesorah)

I dunno this one

>
>
> ...
> : Also see Heramann Stracks' quote that the "MAIN TASK" for posqim today is
> to
> : read the codes and trace them back to the Talmud.  IOW, the Talmud isnow
> : jsut  background for the p'saq, not the foreground.  I posit this morphed
> : from the early Rishonim to the end of Rishonim and I can actually quote
> you
> : sources to this effect.
>
> One could attribute this to today's poseiq not being a throwback. Thus,
> he has neither lesser wisdom nor precedent to confine him.
>

So who syas WHO is a throwback.  I s RAmbam a Trhowaback? Tosafos? Tosafos
essentially jsut did waht the Talmud did, except in France. They
dialectically threw texts together ina eiseive and urminhu style.  Soes
folowing Amoraic Style give Tosafos Amoraic power?  some say yes!  That is
how Tsoafos can be mevateil mayyim acharonim and the issur of clapping on
Shabbos

>
> :> The Gra argued that he only changed pesaqim that were against halakhah
> :> (as he understood it) in favor of those that are not.
>

>
>
> : Guess what? so does every body else. I argue that bachurim not wearing a
> : Tallis Gadol  is against p'saq, and the Darchei Moshe,
>

Do me  a favor and see both the DArchei Moshe and the Mishna Brura. Despite
the mechabeir it is liekly that the brahc on a Talis TKatan is is a bracha
levatllah - hence the MB's position to waith untnil wearing a Tallis Gadol.
And your arguemtn that thsi is optional flies in the face of gazilloins of
Posqim> if Tallis siindceed optional then put on TEfilin first and froget
about tadir veshei'no tadier etc.

>
> If it were assur to daven without a tallis gadol, then it would fit
> the Gra's model to overturn Ashkenazi norm. It's not against halakhah
> because tallis is a reshus.

As Above:
if Tallis siindceed optional then put on TEfilin first and froget about
tadir veshei'no tader etc.

> Same argument we had WRT tefillin on ch"m.
> There is no actual issur against missing a day of tefillin.

Just a bittul mitzvas Aseh!  Please bring me a source for this one! I would
like to see one poseik -  ANY poseik say that this is no big deal.

> Both are
> "merely" mechzei kemeshaqeir.

It's a big deal that Ashekanzim don't wear tefilin on Tisha B'av except that
we do for Mincahh. Look at all the posqim who obejct to that model

>
>
> :> and probably a product of the collapse of the ghetto's culture
> :> during his times.
>
> : Nah.  Gra dies 1797, Napoleon invades Russian Emptire in  1812 The
> ghettoes
> : only BEGAN collapsing 15 years after Gra's passing.
>
> : Gra knew his pesakkim were private.  He never even tried to popularize
> : them.  Those who reached back to the GRA to create a new Halachic norm
> : really wer quite radical to abandon Minhag Avos.
>
> These two paragraphs largely cancel
>

How?

#1 GRA stil had a ghetto
#2 Gra never pushed his minhaggim or psaqim

Why didn't Chayei Adam follow the Gra in his sefer?

> .
> That's not the question. The question is whether what the Gra said still
> within the eilu va'eilu of halakhah.

Wlle whose eilu v'eilu do you accept?
Rabbi Backman's hafka'as Qiddushin?  Arguably not as radical as you would
think.
How about mechira for Shemitta.  We aruable are not 100% sure what year
shemitta is anyway, making every year kind of like not knowing what day
Sahbbos is either.

But you are missing my entire point.  I am not saying the Gra created yesih
mei'ayin I AM saying he opened a can of worms /p[androa's box/ slipery slope
etc. ready-made for future abuse against the system.

Even if every arguemnt is 100% trued ,he destabilized it.

I can prove how dangerous this is because some people on this list find ANY
objection of mine to the status quo of their chrished beliefs and prctices
as really problematic. I see the reaction I get for shwoing with rayos
bruaros that their dearly held shittos are really flimsy,

But I am a nobody.

But the GRA is a somebody. and by showing that nto dozens but operhaps
hundreds of minhaggim, psesaqqim and mietmietcs are questionable if not
wrong is even MORE disturbing.

So for all of you readers on this list that find I am rocking the boa far
too mcuh, mjultiply that by about a factor of 199 to 1,000 and you will get
my point. The Gra's long list of dissents cuouples wwith HIS gravitas is
bound to make the system far less stable than any of my kveches on Avodah.

If YOu are OK with radical changes so long as yo ucan bring proofs, then you
should be OK wiht all of my stuff, too. If not, then you are not being
hoestly introspective, or you are jsut used to the GRA for the last 200
years but are unble to put yourself back into his own day and see what I
mean.

Maybe in 200 years from now, my proposals wil seem like old hat too!
-
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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