[Avodah] Rabbi Michael Rosensweig - Kedoshim Tihiyu: The Obligation to Internalize Halachic Values and Adopt a Halachic World View

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:24:57PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
:> But they didn't take that slippery slope. They realized he was sui
:> generis. Yeish gevul.

: Who are tehe they

Catholic Israel. Who gives authority? The masses who observe3 halakhah
who choose to follow this rabbi over another.

: Zev SEro said SA harav is the same. Who says that list is exahastive
: one Rav told me he accepts RYBS reads of the Rambam over those of Bet
: Yosef.  is he right?

In terms of what -- he holds like RYBS's Rambam over the pesaq of MBY?
That would be wrong even according to RYBS, who notes that acceptance of
the SA as the point from which acharonic discussion originates was what
was almost entirely (with the above exceptions) nispasheit.

...
: > AISI, not so, as long as one is medaqdeiq that the hashkafah is used
: > only to choose between options actually supportable through textual
: > halachic process.

: So give me the sources for dancing on Shabbos against codified
: Mishna!...

The Rama (OCh 339:3) cites the Tosafos (Beitzah 30a "Tenan"). They are
meikil on the gezeirah of instruments, since no one tunes their own
instruments where they actually are tunable.

It's clear from the Rambam's formulation (Shaabos 32:4), who stresses
the connection implied in the mishnah -- the issur is against rhythm. We
discussed something similar in parshanus: there is indication that
mecholos is a kind of dancing, and another that it was an intrument. If
dancing, it's a dance that focusses on producing a rhythm with one's
feet. Don't tap dance.

Is that a weak justification? Yes. It would require strong support from
outside the textual formalism realm in order to become pesaq. But that's
different than, say:
: So it if FEELS good it is OK?  C's argue bring guitars to shul and get
: kabbalas Sahbbos to be more lively like kumsitz!

"FEELS good" is emotionally loaded way of phrasing it. Aggadita is not
just warm fuzzies. But bekhol zos.

C goes beyond Tosafos or any other rishon, abolishing the gezeirah
altogether on an instrument the performer usually does tune. The option
lacks that justifiability.

And, like we agreed earlier, there is a yir'as Shamayim difference
in deciding whether the motivation really is AYH between how the two
movements do things.

:                                         and  how about Sukkah on Shmini
: Atzeres?

Well, I wouldn't justify it, personally.

The Minchas Elazar reads the gemara: Yasiv yasvinan -- is it possible
we're supposed to sit in the Sukkah, umevorakh lo mevarkhinan -- at a
time when it's assur to say the berakhah?

: And if you are clear that you are right and I am not then let the slippery
: slope being. YOU might be satisfied that his process will not be abused, and
: I say it is inherently fuzzy and quite abusable!

Except we both know halakhah is fuzzy. That's not a criticism, that's
proof that the theory conforms to the experimental data! Yes, it's
dangerous: gesher tzar me'od.

The slippery slope is avoided because of the yir'as Hashem of the people
who are trying to follow ratzaon haBorei. Because we will only accept
poseqim who are actually trying to weigh things ased on trying to find
Ratzon haBorei, and not to seek personal ends (political, accomodating
zeitgeist, etc...)

You can continue to seek a hard-edged algorithmic version of halachic
process, but you won't succeed in finding one that fits how halakhah is
decided, nor explain the existence of gray areas at the edges of things.

:> Add to that that in our day, there is no dominant minhag avos to define
:> a minhag hamaqom, we are in the beginning of a process of congealing new
:> minhagei hamaqom in our new meqomos.

: I kinda accept that

:> I therefore feel it's an appropriate
:> time to give aggadah more weight than usual. :-)BBii!

: Makes no sense to me. It makes a fuzzier situatoin evn FUZZIER and MORE
: subjective and substituting FRUMKEIT for EHRLICHKEIT  We can now ply MORE
: games with texts and  pasken by emotiosn w/o sources because  it ulimtately
: leads to piety. this was the early Anti-nomian position of the Hassidim upon
: which the GRA put a herem!

The current situation is insuffiently fuzzy. It follows the books, with
no eye to other criteria -- minhag avos, AYH, nothing. And so we have
creaping chumraization among people who aren't any closer to being "erev
Shabbos Jews". /Something/ has to 

: AISI we live in a WESTERNIZED society in the USA.  We should use more
: obejctive and stricter Yekke style analysis of sources and get Halcha from a
: more fiar-minded Centrist shvil Hazahav with less lieralism and
: reactionariyism.

But Yekkish analysis isn't all book sources. That's Lithuania, post-AhS.
Yekkish analysis is the use of those books that support the general way
things have been done.

: That said, I do agree that paskening w/o any grounding in Midrash and
: Agagadah is a VERY bad thing. I have started mini-doses of Tanna devai
: Eliyahu [great hizzuk for me] Pireki R. Elizeze [over my head at times]

But why? You just argtued against its use, with no room left for any
role for aggadita!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?