[Avodah] Ahavat Yisrael

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, May 10, 2007 11:05 am, R Samuel Svarc wrote on Areivim:
:>On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 11:52:51AM +1000, SBA wrote:
:>: Come now... the MB CLEARLY states:
:>: 'apikorsim HAMISKOMEMIM AL HATORAH'.

Me:
:>Which, again, excludes anyone not raised O, and according to the CI,
:>anyone raised O in today's heterogeneous world.

: Kindly provide a source for this assertion in the name of the CI on
: Avodah.
: He, IIRC, quite clearly doesn't say this.

Two points about the MB's expression.

1- The MB is setting two requirements: that the person be an apiqoreis
and that he be the kind of apiqoreis who attacks the Torah. Someone
who lacks the knowledge to be an apoqoreis but is still someone who
attacks the Torah doesn't qualify.

2- I do not think that someone who attacks the Torah but doesn't come
from a Torah background is "misqomeim". He isn't in a state of
rebellion, but of attack from the outside..

The other issue is whether the typical Jew is a tinoq shenishba. RMF
held yes, with the exception of their religious leadership. RMF's
sevara, however, would apply to nearly all of the current generation
of rabbis as well, since they are no longer products of a classical
Jewish education who left, but products of the education provided by
those movements. The level of education in things we consider Torah is
comparable to early HS (they are well educated, but in other things),
and everything is presented prespun to bias someone against accepting
any of it.

The key CI is YD 2:16.

See the back-and-forth at
<http://tinyurl.com/2tnhf6#TINOK%20SHENISHBA> and adjacent topics --
this is a recurrent theme on Avodah, and I would prefer not to start
at ground zero all over again.

We have debated this in the past, and RYGB wrote about the CI's
position on tinoqos shenishbe'u bizman hazeh at some length. The CI
says that there are two kinds of TS, and the one who heard of Torah
but never lead to embrace it has a sheim rasha, but there are numerous
halakhos that do not apply to him. Such that "lo ma'alim velo moridim"
does not apply to the TS, nor leshitaso anyone who didn't live to see
the beis hamiqdash. See also
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol15/v15n045.shtml#08> where RYGB
cites many question marks (<g> Hebrew that didn't come out) on the issue.

RDJBackon stated that discussion with roughly the same mar'eh meqomos
as before, but left it with a tzarich iyun since the CI does say what
RYGB claimed he did.

RMShinnar <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol15/v15n002.shtml#11> cites
the Pachad Yitzchaq to be even more embracing of the TS. And more
recently RMS cited the Radvaz (4:187) that an apiqoreis defined by his
rebellion, not by having the wrong beliefs in and of itself. And so
someone who reaches kefirah through honest derishah bechaqirah does
not get the chalos sheim kofer.

Ramban at Bemidbar 15:22 discusses the mumar lekhol haTorah kulah
beshogeig.

RDE (unsurprisingly) cited IM OC 5:28.22 pg 103.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your
grip, http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter