[Avodah] waiting 24 hours before libun

[Dr. Josh Backon]

At 10:49 PM 4/2/2007, Celejar wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:41:28 +0300
>"Dr. Josh Backon" <backon at vms.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>
> >
> > >Waiting 24 hours from the last use before kashering is only required
> > >for hagalah, not libun. See Hagalas Keilim chapter 6 paragraph 15, and
> > >the sources in note 40. This would seem to apply even to libun kal, and
> > >that's the opinion of the author of Hagalas Keilim, although in note 41
> > >he cites the Siduro Shel Pesah who disagrees about libun kal, which he
> > >dismisses as incorrect.
> >
> >
> > Obviously as per the Aruch haShulchan YD 121 #22 [b'libun ein chiluk
> > bein she'hu
> > ben yomo o eino ben yomo ..,. d'ha'esh m'chaleh ha'kol'] you don't
> > have to wait 24
> > for libun GAMUR. However, I was referring to libun KAL (oven). 
> The problem is
> > whether we pasken chametz before Pessach is hetera bal'a or issura bal'a.
>
>I don't completely follow you. Hetera vs. issura bala has two
>(relevant) nafka minos: a) may one kasher a utensil used al haesh with
>hagala (or its equivalent, libun kal) [OC 451:4], and b) must one who
>does hagala without water 60x the hametz be concerned that the hametz
>will reenter the utensil [ibid. 452:1 - see Biur Halakha s.v. sheain].
>An oven is presumably tashmisho baesh, and we're mahmir to consider
>hametz issura bala and to therefore require libun hamur (Rama ibid. 451
>and Mishneh Breruah ibid. 32), so why do you say libun kal?

Moadim l'Simcha

Why libun kal for our ovens ?? Because most poskim (except for the 
Iggrot Moshe)
hold that libun gamur is only needed for pizza ovens (open fire and 
where food is
placed directly on the stones). With  household ovens,  food is always placed
inside pots on racks and thus has the din of chatzuva (trivet ??). 
The only problem in the
oven is zei'ah, and since it's a davar lach, hag'ala (or libun kal) 
are sufficient (Yoreh
Deah 92:8). There are poskim (e.g. the Darchei Moshe quoting the Issur v'Heter)
that chametz before Pessach is hetera bal'a. And why "eino ben yomo" ? See the
Shaar Hatziyun there (s"k 3).

So if it's a household oven where all food is placed inside pots 
(noch covered !), and
taking the position that chametz before Pessach is hetera bal'a and 
one waits 24 hours
after it's thoroughly cleaned with a dovur pagum (like Easy Off), 
then there is a snif
l'hakel to use libun kal.


 >The entire "oylam" requires a waiting period of 24 hours (after
> > cleaning) for Libun Kal.
>
>I don't know the minhag, but the Sefer Hagalas Keilim that I cited is a
>fairly authoritative work. Additionally, as my brother in law points
>out, his argument is rather convincing; the humra to wait 24 hours is
>to avoid the problem of the hametz reentering the utensil (by waiting
>24 hours it becomes nifgam and therefore nat bar nat dehetaira), and
>that's why the poskim do not require waiting before libun, since this
>reason is inapplicable, and it would indeed seem inapplicable to any
>sort of libun.


See above.

KT

Josh



>Good Yom Tov,
>Yitzhak
>
>
>
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