[Avodah] waiting 24 hours before libun

[Celejar]

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 22:37:31 +0300
"Dr. Josh Backon" <backon at vms.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> At 10:49 PM 4/2/2007, Celejar wrote:
> >On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:41:28 +0300
> >"Dr. Josh Backon" <backon at vms.huji.ac.il> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >Waiting 24 hours from the last use before kashering is only required
> > > >for hagalah, not libun. See Hagalas Keilim chapter 6 paragraph 15, and
> > > >the sources in note 40. This would seem to apply even to libun kal, and
> > > >that's the opinion of the author of Hagalas Keilim, although in note 41
> > > >he cites the Siduro Shel Pesah who disagrees about libun kal, which he
> > > >dismisses as incorrect.
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously as per the Aruch haShulchan YD 121 #22 [b'libun ein chiluk
> > > bein she'hu
> > > ben yomo o eino ben yomo ..,. d'ha'esh m'chaleh ha'kol'] you don't
> > > have to wait 24
> > > for libun GAMUR. However, I was referring to libun KAL (oven). 
> > The problem is
> > > whether we pasken chametz before Pessach is hetera bal'a or issura bal'a.
> >
> >I don't completely follow you. Hetera vs. issura bala has two
> >(relevant) nafka minos: a) may one kasher a utensil used al haesh with
> >hagala (or its equivalent, libun kal) [OC 451:4], and b) must one who
> >does hagala without water 60x the hametz be concerned that the hametz
> >will reenter the utensil [ibid. 452:1 - see Biur Halakha s.v. sheain].
> >An oven is presumably tashmisho baesh, and we're mahmir to consider
> >hametz issura bala and to therefore require libun hamur (Rama ibid. 451
> >and Mishneh Breruah ibid. 32), so why do you say libun kal?
> 
> Moadim l'Simcha
> 
> Why libun kal for our ovens ?? Because most poskim (except for the 
> Iggrot Moshe)
> hold that libun gamur is only needed for pizza ovens (open fire and 
> where food is
> placed directly on the stones). With  household ovens,  food is always placed
> inside pots on racks and thus has the din of chatzuva (trivet ??). 
> The only problem in the
> oven is zei'ah, and since it's a davar lach, hag'ala (or libun kal) 
> are sufficient (Yoreh
> Deah 92:8). There are poskim (e.g. the Darchei Moshe quoting the Issur v'Heter)
> that chametz before Pessach is hetera bal'a. And why "eino ben yomo" ? See the
> Shaar Hatziyun there (s"k 3).
> 
> So if it's a household oven where all food is placed inside pots 
> (noch covered !), and
> taking the position that chametz before Pessach is hetera bal'a and 
> one waits 24 hours
> after it's thoroughly cleaned with a dovur pagum (like Easy Off), 
> then there is a snif
> l'hakel to use libun kal.

I concede that an oven used as you describe doesn't require libun
gamur. This is so even according to the opinion that hametz is issura
bala.

>  >The entire "oylam" requires a waiting period of 24 hours (after
> > > cleaning) for Libun Kal.
> >
> >I don't know the minhag, but the Sefer Hagalas Keilim that I cited is a
> >fairly authoritative work. Additionally, as my brother in law points
> >out, his argument is rather convincing; the humra to wait 24 hours is
> >to avoid the problem of the hametz reentering the utensil (by waiting
> >24 hours it becomes nifgam and therefore nat bar nat dehetaira), and
> >that's why the poskim do not require waiting before libun, since this
> >reason is inapplicable, and it would indeed seem inapplicable to any
> >sort of libun.
> 
> 
> See above.

I still don't see why one would need to wait 24 hours before doing
libun, even libun kal. Since libun is soref, why would one need to
worry that some hametz might reenter the utensil? I suppose one might
argue that libun kal isn't soref, just maflit like hagala, but even so,
is there a possibility that the hametz that is niflat will reenter? One
of the sources cited by Hagalas Keilim does apparently use language to
the effect that when one does libun "everything immediately falls to
the ground" and that there is therefore no problem with hametz reentry.
While I suppose it's possible to argue that he's referring to libun
hamur, what is the source or rationale for the idea that when doing
libun kal, some hametz may reenter the utensil?

Good Moed,
Yitzhak