[Avodah] Life iver (mistakenly life over)
Eli Turkel
eliturkel at gmail.com
Sun Aug 4 18:53:55 PDT 2013
Let me try again
The question is not whether the giver considers it treif but rather whether
he views the receivers peak as legitimate
Some examples
A sefardi can give an Ashkenazi nonglatt meat even though it is prohibited
to the sefardi since he recognizes that the Ashkenazi paskens like the
Ramah. Similar situations occur with regard to heating on shabbat where the
mechaber and remah have their arguments or wine for kiddush etc
There are well known stories of rsza passing on shalachot manot he received
to the next visitor regardless of the hasgacha
Sadly in today's world of kashrut many people feel that their level is not
just more machmir but that those that rely on hechsher X are eating treif
The same goes for smart phones and many other issues. No longer do we have
a range of piskei halachot but instead my way is right and your way is
glatt treif. Again a prime example is heter mechira. While all followers of
R Kook and rsza and also ROY allow heter mechira at least bidieved there is
a push to completely outlaw it and require hechsher keilim for one who
changes to not using the heater
Bottom what is the definition of a legitimate hechsher is subjective
Kol tuv
Eli Turkel
On Aug 5, 2013 4:02 AM, <avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. synthetic meat (M Cohen)
2. Bubby Didn't Eat Bugs! (Micha Berger)
3. Re: synthetic meat (Micha Berger)
4. Re: synthetic meat (Zev Sero)
5. Life iver (Eli Turkel)
6. Re: Life iver (Zev Sero)
7. Re: Life iver (Micha Berger)
8. Re: Life iver (Zev Sero)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:07:03 -0400
From: "M Cohen" <mcohen at touchlogic.com>
To: <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] synthetic meat
Message-ID: <059101ce8eb8$04607500$0d215f00$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
beef stem cells are being used to grow synthetic meat
does this have a prob of eiver min hachai or (more likely) yotzei min
hachai?
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 13:47:49 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Bubby Didn't Eat Bugs!
Message-ID: <20130801174749.GA9008 at aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>From http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5032
Ohr Samayach encourages reuse, so I'm giving them the broader exposure
they ask for by including it in full. The pretend html tags to show that
the first paragraph was in bold is mine.
Teaser (cut out before I decided to include the whole post):
However, before we just decide to possibly denigrate our ancestors
and query their choice of produce, one would do well to realize that
there actually are other more lenient opinions regarding different
halachic aspects of tolaim...
In fact, many great poskim and gedolim over the generations
worked tirelessly to find any sort of justification to allow the
eating of many foods. In those days, especially in the summer,
many foods including basic wheat and grain were extremely prone to
insect infestation, and the deplorable storage conditions did not
help matters. These gedolim included Rav Yonason Eibeshutz, Rav
Shlomo Kluger, the Ksav Sofer, the Mishkenos Yaakov and the Aruch
HaShulchan[5]. Others, including the Yad Yehuda[6], tried to give
eitzos to lessen the odds of eating bugs.
-Micha
Ohr Samayach
Insights into Halacha
Bubby Didn't Eat Bugs!
by Rabbi Yehuda Spitz
<bold>
Recently there has been a spate of literature in Torah publications
addressing one of the biggest issues related to the kosher consumer,
BUGS! This is quite apropos, for if one would eat an insect, depending
on whether it is a land, sea or air bug (sort of the entomology world's
answer to the Navy SEALS), one might unwittingly transgress upto six
separate Biblical prohibitions![1] Therefore it is very important to
stay abreast of the latest bug-combating and controlling developments,
as well as the individual vegetables current infestation rates, to make
sure that our produce remains insect-free.
</bold>
If one would glance at the full-page glossy ads in the ubiquitous Jewish
magazine, it would seem that produce growers are falling over themselves
to provide every possible green with the best of hechsherim, all while
stating the various methods used to ascertain that one should not stumble
and transgress these Biblical prohibitions. "Greenhouse Grown", "Triple
Washed", "Insect Free", and "Requires No Checking" scream out from the
ads. While everything is done to guarantee what is most definitely a
tremendous public service, some might say "Well, if nowadays we utilize
innovation and technology to ensure that there are no bugs lurking in our
lettuce, what did the previous generations do? They did not know, and
actually could not have known, about the proper methods of checking for
and making certain that their food did not contain any uninvited guests".
This point to ponder is not purely academic, as recently a major Jewish
publication featured this very question, with the cover quote "Did Bubby
Eat Bugs?". Although the author did a fine job explaining the issues and
problems involved with bug infestation and how to make sure that one's
food should not contain any crunchy crawlers, and even from a halachic
standpoint, still, the title question remained mainly unanswered.
However, before we just decide to possibly denigrate our ancestors and
query their choice of produce, one would do well to realize that there
actually are other more lenient opinions regarding different halachic
aspects of tolaim (worms; also the generic term used to refer to insect
infestation).
For example, regarding what appear to be specks on the peel of a
citrus fruit, there is some halachic debate over whether one has to
assume that they actually are insects[2]. Another leniency (known as
the Shittas HaKreisi U'Pleisi) is perhaps an insect born inside a food
item does not maintain the full halachic status of a bug, and might be
considered nullified[3]. Also, it is worthwhile to note that according
to virtually every halachic authority, anything that cannot be seen
by the naked eye (including miniscule and microscopic insects) are not
considered present[4].
In fact, many great poskim and gedolim over the generations worked
tirelessly to find any sort of justification to allow the eating of many
foods. In those days, especially in the summer, many foods including
basic wheat and grain were extremely prone to insect infestation, and
the deplorable storage conditions did not help matters. These gedolim
included Rav Yonason Eibeshutz, Rav Shlomo Kluger, the Ksav Sofer, the
Mishkenos Yaakov and the Aruch HaShulchan[5]. Others, including the Yad
Yehuda[6], tried to giveeitzos to lessen the odds of eating bugs.
Their collective reasoning was (loose translation) "to find merit for
Bnei Yisrael to save them on the Day of Judgment, and, Heaven forbid,
to say that all of Bnei Yisrael would stumble on such a great sin, as it
is a near impossibility to find any food, especially in the summer days,
that has no trace of any sort of insect, and it is almost impossible to
properly check."
Rav Moshe Feinstein[7] zt"l was asked near the end of his life
about prohibiting a certain type of fruit due to a possible insect
issue. Rav Moshe responded that it may not be publicized that this
fruit is prohibited; as aside for the fact that there were lenient
opinions to rely upon (in that specific situation), "it is prohibited
to spread rumorsabout earlier generations, who could not have possibly
been stringent on these issues, as they were unaware of them".
Rav Moshe's thrust and main point was not that people from earlier
generations were not culpable, even though they may have been eating
non-kosher; rather it was that even if it is assumed that the halacha
generally follows the more stringent opinion, we may not publicize that
certain issues are assur (prohibited). Rav Moshe was teaching us that
is preferable to rely on a lenient opinion (and saying that previous
generations had what to rely on as well) than to say that something is
definitely assur, and cast negative aspersions on previous generations -
whom, without any doubt, were on a higher spiritual level than we are,
especially as they are at least one step closer to Har Sinai. Although it
must be noted that many disagree with the above-mentioned leniencies,
and the general halacha does not seem to rely upon them lchatchila,
nevertheless, these very same hetterim are also what Rav Moshe declared
are preferable to rely upon than to disparage previous generations. This
should serve as "food for thought" to clarify the matter and to help
quiet any doubts or concerns that were left about "Bubby eating bugs".
_______________________
[1]Prohibitions are stated in Parshas Shmini (Vayikra Ch.11). See Gemara
Makkos 16b, Pesachim 24a and Eruvin 28a, statement of Abaye; Rambam
(Hilchos Maachalos Assuros Ch. 2, 14 & 23); and Tur/Shulchan Aruch
(Y"D 84, 6 and Y"D 100).
[2]Although many rule stringently with this, there are several
contemporary authorities who are lenient. See for example, Shu"t Shevet
HaLevi (vol. 7, 122); Shmiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa (Ch. 3, 37, 105),
Halichos Shlomo - Tefilla (Ch. 4, 25, 78) and V'Aleihu Lo Yibol (vol. 2,
Y"D 1); Shu"t Igros Moshe (Y"D vol. 2, 146 s.v. umah); and Yalkut Yosef
(IV"H vol. 2, 84, 21).
[3]Those who follow this leniency include the Kreisi U'Pleisi (Y"D 100, 4;
he actually later retracts), Rav Shlomo Kluger (Shu"t Tuv Taam V'Daas (3,
1, 160), the Ksav Sofer (Shu"t Y"D 63), the Imrei Baruch (Y"D beg. 100),
the Mishkenos Yaakov (Shu"t Y"D 30), and the Aruch HaShulchan (Y"D 100,
13-18).
[4]This is a topic which will IY"H be explored fuller in a future article.
[5]See previous footnote. Several authorities tried to find other hetterim
including the Aruch Hashulchan's controversial take that since bugs
are generally considered disgusting, they are immediately nullified;
and the Kreisi U'Pleisi's (above, 2) and Avnei Nezer's (Shu"t Y"D 81,
6) opinion that even a beryah has a din of bittul [not like the general
consensus among the Shulchan Aruch (Y"D 100) and the main commentaries].
[6]Yad Yehuda (Y"D 61, 63, 6).
[7]Shu"t Igros Moshe (Y"D 4, end 2).
__________________________________________________________________
For any questions, comments or for the full Mareh Mekomos / sources,
please email the author: yspitz at ohr.edu
Disclaimer: These are just a few basic guidelines and overview of
the Halacha discussed in this article. This is by no means a complete
comprehensive authoritative guide, but rather a brief summary to raise
awareness of the issue. One should not compare similar cases in order
to rules in any real case, but should refer his questions to a competent
Halachic authority.
__________________________________________________________________
L'iluy Nishmas the Rosh HaYeshiva - Rav Chonoh Menachem Mendel ben R'
Yechezkel Shraga, Rav Yaakov Yeshaya ben R' Boruch Yehuda, and l'zchus
for Shira Yaffa bas Rochel Miriam and her children for a yeshua teikef
u'miyad! [43]Print
? 1995-2013 Ohr Somayach International - All rights reserved.
Articles may be distributed to another person intact without prior
permission. We also encourage you to include this material in other
publications, such as synagogue or school newsletters. Hardcopy or
electronic....
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 14:02:01 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] synthetic meat
Message-ID: <20130801180201.GA21055 at aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Aug 01, 2013 at 09:07:03AM -0400, M Cohen wrote:
: beef stem cells are being used to grow synthetic meat
: does this have a prob of eiver min hachai or (more likely) yotzei min
: hachai?
I am thinking this is like the question of the kashrus of maggots, as R'
Dovid Lifshitz framed it in shiur in the mid-1980s. (Filtered through
nearly 30 years of memory drift.)
There RDL saw the question as whether the microscopic maggot eggs and
early larvae have halachic import. If they do, then since the egg came
from outside the meat, we can no longer hold that the maggots are made
from the meat, and no longer permit them.
But since (leshitaso) the eggs do not, then the only thing that brought
the maggot from a kosher invisibly small thing to a maggot was the
meat it ate since hatching, and therefore the treif bug was actually
solely caused by the meat. And still as kosher as when we thought they
reproduced literally abiogenetically.
Here too.... I understand that we're starting with invisibly small
"pieces" of cow. So if the egg connects the maggot found within the meat
to its mother, then these cells would make the resulting meat a product
of the source cow. And if not, not.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
micha at aishdas.org I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:36:32 -0400
From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] synthetic meat
Message-ID: <51FAC6D0.3050808 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/08/2013 9:07 AM, M Cohen wrote:
> beef stem cells are being used to grow synthetic meat
>
> does this have a prob of eiver min hachai or (more likely) yotzei min
> hachai?
I would think it would be like yeast or yoghurt culture that we've discussed
before. Basically cultured meat is really a sort of fungus, and should be
both kosher and pareve.
--
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
zev at sero.name substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
the reason he needs.
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 21:32:12 -0400
From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel at gmail.com>
To: Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Life iver
Message-ID:
<CAGDtJ1EEwqwiz+3n7mWM4ZSoR8kMYtAMXjRBJ_-fwrvX6juz=Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>From what I have read there is no problem in giving someone food from a
hasgacha that he uses but the giver doesn't as long as the hasgacha is a
recognized one. Certainly things that are a machloket between mechaber and
Raman. ROY will frequently pasken that something is allowed to sefardim and
not Ashkenazim and vice versa
The problem begins when you deny the legitimacy of the opposition. Thus the
badatz paskens that someone who relies on heater mechira and does yeshiva
has to masher all his dishes
R Karelitz obviously feels that there is only side to the kosher phone
issue.
As if the owner had a heter for the phone I can only guess that he feels
this a miut one not consider
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 21:59:27 -0400
From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Life iver
Message-ID: <51FB127F.6030806 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/08/2013 9:32 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> From what I have read there is no problem in giving someone food from a
hasgacha that he uses but the giver doesn't as long as the hasgacha is a
recognized one.
What does it mean that it's a recognised one? Usually it means that one
accepts that its food is probably -- or even certainly -- kosher, and would
eat it in an emergency, but prefers to be mehader when one can. The other
person is not obligated to adopt the same hiddurim. But here we're
discussing
something that one holds is assur; the fact that there are poskim who permit
it is a limud zechus for those who follow them, they are not baalei aveira,
they are kosher le'eidus, one may rely on "stam keilim einan benei yoman" to
eat in their homes, but the bottom line is that the food they're asking you
to
give them is (in your opinion) treif! It's assur, both to you and to them!
The fact that they honestly believe it to be kosher, and that they have a
*right* to believe that, only makes them all the more "blind" in the matter!
So how can one put a stumbling block before them?
If one is invited to dinner at the home of a Rhinelander, may one bring him
the chelev of the stomach, that we hold is an issur kares, knowing that he
will surely eat it?
--
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
zev at sero.name substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
the reason he needs.
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 17:09:40 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Life iver
Message-ID: <20130802210940.GA9067 at aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Aug 01, 2013 at 09:32:12PM -0400, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The problem begins when you deny the legitimacy of the opposition. Thus
the
: badatz paskens that someone who relies on heater mechira and does yeshiva
: has to masher all his dishes
Although if the phone were found in a beis medrash in Benei Braq, odds
are very high the person who lost it /does/ hold by this pesaq.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 17:49:31 -0400
From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Life iver
Message-ID: <51FC296B.6060008 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On Thu, Aug 01, 2013 at 09:32:12PM -0400, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Thus the badatz paskens that someone who relies on heater mechira and
> does teshuvah has to kasher all his dishes
That raises an interesting question. Suppose you were a Rhinish Jew who
has been eating what the rest of Jewry holds is chelev. At some point you
either move into a community where this is not acceptable, or you conclude
that your community's position is incorrect, and you stop eating it. Do you
have to kasher your keilim? On the one hand, of course you do! You've
been cooking chelev de'oraisa in them! It's an issur kares! On the other
hand, for all these years, mainstream frum Jews have been eating at your
home, from these very same keilim, relying on "stam keilim einan benei
yoman".
The Shulchan Aruch told them it was OK to do so. Now you have something
even
better -- you *know* your keilim are not benei yoman! So how can we say
that
you should not rely on that? How can we tell you to kasher keilim that we
ourselves were willing to eat from before you "did teshuvah"?
--
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
zev at sero.name substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
the reason he needs.
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan
------------------------------
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