<p dir="ltr">Let me try again<br>
The question is not whether the giver considers it treif but rather whether he views the receivers peak as legitimate</p>
<p dir="ltr">Some examples<br>
A sefardi can give an Ashkenazi nonglatt meat even though it is prohibited to the sefardi since he recognizes that the Ashkenazi paskens like the Ramah. Similar situations occur with regard to heating on shabbat where the mechaber and remah have their arguments or wine for kiddush etc<br>
There are well known stories of rsza passing on shalachot manot he received to the next visitor regardless of the hasgacha</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sadly in today's world of kashrut many people feel that their level is not just more machmir but that those that rely on hechsher X are eating treif</p>
<p dir="ltr">The same goes for smart phones and many other issues. No longer do we have a range of piskei halachot but instead my way is right and your way is glatt treif. Again a prime example is heter mechira. While all followers of R Kook and rsza and also ROY allow heter mechira at least bidieved there is a push to completely outlaw it and require hechsher keilim for one who changes to not using the heater</p>
<p dir="ltr">Bottom what is the definition of a legitimate hechsher is subjective</p>
<p dir="ltr">Kol tuv<br>
Eli Turkel</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 5, 2013 4:02 AM, <<a href="mailto:avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org">avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. synthetic meat (M Cohen)<br>
2. Bubby Didn't Eat Bugs! (Micha Berger)<br>
3. Re: synthetic meat (Micha Berger)<br>
4. Re: synthetic meat (Zev Sero)<br>
5. Life iver (Eli Turkel)<br>
6. Re: Life iver (Zev Sero)<br>
7. Re: Life iver (Micha Berger)<br>
8. Re: Life iver (Zev Sero)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:07:03 -0400<br>
From: "M Cohen" <<a href="mailto:mcohen@touchlogic.com">mcohen@touchlogic.com</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] synthetic meat<br>
Message-ID: <059101ce8eb8$04607500$0d215f00$@com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
beef stem cells are being used to grow synthetic meat<br>
<br>
does this have a prob of eiver min hachai or (more likely) yotzei min<br>
hachai?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 13:47:49 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@aishdas.org">avodah@aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Bubby Didn't Eat Bugs!<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20130801174749.GA9008@aishdas.org">20130801174749.GA9008@aishdas.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
>From <a href="http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5032" target="_blank">http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5032</a><br>
Ohr Samayach encourages reuse, so I'm giving them the broader exposure<br>
they ask for by including it in full. The pretend html tags to show that<br>
the first paragraph was in bold is mine.<br>
<br>
Teaser (cut out before I decided to include the whole post):<br>
However, before we just decide to possibly denigrate our ancestors<br>
and query their choice of produce, one would do well to realize that<br>
there actually are other more lenient opinions regarding different<br>
halachic aspects of tolaim...<br>
<br>
In fact, many great poskim and gedolim over the generations<br>
worked tirelessly to find any sort of justification to allow the<br>
eating of many foods. In those days, especially in the summer,<br>
many foods including basic wheat and grain were extremely prone to<br>
insect infestation, and the deplorable storage conditions did not<br>
help matters. These gedolim included Rav Yonason Eibeshutz, Rav<br>
Shlomo Kluger, the Ksav Sofer, the Mishkenos Yaakov and the Aruch<br>
HaShulchan[5]. Others, including the Yad Yehuda[6], tried to give<br>
eitzos to lessen the odds of eating bugs.<br>
<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
Ohr Samayach<br>
Insights into Halacha<br>
<br>
Bubby Didn't Eat Bugs!<br>
by Rabbi Yehuda Spitz<br>
<br>
<bold><br>
Recently there has been a spate of literature in Torah publications<br>
addressing one of the biggest issues related to the kosher consumer,<br>
BUGS! This is quite apropos, for if one would eat an insect, depending<br>
on whether it is a land, sea or air bug (sort of the entomology world's<br>
answer to the Navy SEALS), one might unwittingly transgress upto six<br>
separate Biblical prohibitions![1] Therefore it is very important to<br>
stay abreast of the latest bug-combating and controlling developments,<br>
as well as the individual vegetables current infestation rates, to make<br>
sure that our produce remains insect-free.<br>
</bold><br>
<br>
If one would glance at the full-page glossy ads in the ubiquitous Jewish<br>
magazine, it would seem that produce growers are falling over themselves<br>
to provide every possible green with the best of hechsherim, all while<br>
stating the various methods used to ascertain that one should not stumble<br>
and transgress these Biblical prohibitions. "Greenhouse Grown", "Triple<br>
Washed", "Insect Free", and "Requires No Checking" scream out from the<br>
ads. While everything is done to guarantee what is most definitely a<br>
tremendous public service, some might say "Well, if nowadays we utilize<br>
innovation and technology to ensure that there are no bugs lurking in our<br>
lettuce, what did the previous generations do? They did not know, and<br>
actually could not have known, about the proper methods of checking for<br>
and making certain that their food did not contain any uninvited guests".<br>
<br>
This point to ponder is not purely academic, as recently a major Jewish<br>
publication featured this very question, with the cover quote "Did Bubby<br>
Eat Bugs?". Although the author did a fine job explaining the issues and<br>
problems involved with bug infestation and how to make sure that one's<br>
food should not contain any crunchy crawlers, and even from a halachic<br>
standpoint, still, the title question remained mainly unanswered.<br>
<br>
However, before we just decide to possibly denigrate our ancestors and<br>
query their choice of produce, one would do well to realize that there<br>
actually are other more lenient opinions regarding different halachic<br>
aspects of tolaim (worms; also the generic term used to refer to insect<br>
infestation).<br>
<br>
For example, regarding what appear to be specks on the peel of a<br>
citrus fruit, there is some halachic debate over whether one has to<br>
assume that they actually are insects[2]. Another leniency (known as<br>
the Shittas HaKreisi U'Pleisi) is perhaps an insect born inside a food<br>
item does not maintain the full halachic status of a bug, and might be<br>
considered nullified[3]. Also, it is worthwhile to note that according<br>
to virtually every halachic authority, anything that cannot be seen<br>
by the naked eye (including miniscule and microscopic insects) are not<br>
considered present[4].<br>
<br>
In fact, many great poskim and gedolim over the generations worked<br>
tirelessly to find any sort of justification to allow the eating of many<br>
foods. In those days, especially in the summer, many foods including<br>
basic wheat and grain were extremely prone to insect infestation, and<br>
the deplorable storage conditions did not help matters. These gedolim<br>
included Rav Yonason Eibeshutz, Rav Shlomo Kluger, the Ksav Sofer, the<br>
Mishkenos Yaakov and the Aruch HaShulchan[5]. Others, including the Yad<br>
Yehuda[6], tried to giveeitzos to lessen the odds of eating bugs.<br>
<br>
Their collective reasoning was (loose translation) "to find merit for<br>
Bnei Yisrael to save them on the Day of Judgment, and, Heaven forbid,<br>
to say that all of Bnei Yisrael would stumble on such a great sin, as it<br>
is a near impossibility to find any food, especially in the summer days,<br>
that has no trace of any sort of insect, and it is almost impossible to<br>
properly check."<br>
<br>
Rav Moshe Feinstein[7] zt"l was asked near the end of his life<br>
about prohibiting a certain type of fruit due to a possible insect<br>
issue. Rav Moshe responded that it may not be publicized that this<br>
fruit is prohibited; as aside for the fact that there were lenient<br>
opinions to rely upon (in that specific situation), "it is prohibited<br>
to spread rumorsabout earlier generations, who could not have possibly<br>
been stringent on these issues, as they were unaware of them".<br>
<br>
Rav Moshe's thrust and main point was not that people from earlier<br>
generations were not culpable, even though they may have been eating<br>
non-kosher; rather it was that even if it is assumed that the halacha<br>
generally follows the more stringent opinion, we may not publicize that<br>
certain issues are assur (prohibited). Rav Moshe was teaching us that<br>
is preferable to rely on a lenient opinion (and saying that previous<br>
generations had what to rely on as well) than to say that something is<br>
definitely assur, and cast negative aspersions on previous generations -<br>
whom, without any doubt, were on a higher spiritual level than we are,<br>
especially as they are at least one step closer to Har Sinai. Although it<br>
must be noted that many disagree with the above-mentioned leniencies,<br>
and the general halacha does not seem to rely upon them lchatchila,<br>
nevertheless, these very same hetterim are also what Rav Moshe declared<br>
are preferable to rely upon than to disparage previous generations. This<br>
should serve as "food for thought" to clarify the matter and to help<br>
quiet any doubts or concerns that were left about "Bubby eating bugs".<br>
_______________________<br>
<br>
[1]Prohibitions are stated in Parshas Shmini (Vayikra Ch.11). See Gemara<br>
Makkos 16b, Pesachim 24a and Eruvin 28a, statement of Abaye; Rambam<br>
(Hilchos Maachalos Assuros Ch. 2, 14 & 23); and Tur/Shulchan Aruch<br>
(Y"D 84, 6 and Y"D 100).<br>
<br>
[2]Although many rule stringently with this, there are several<br>
contemporary authorities who are lenient. See for example, Shu"t Shevet<br>
HaLevi (vol. 7, 122); Shmiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa (Ch. 3, 37, 105),<br>
Halichos Shlomo - Tefilla (Ch. 4, 25, 78) and V'Aleihu Lo Yibol (vol. 2,<br>
Y"D 1); Shu"t Igros Moshe (Y"D vol. 2, 146 s.v. umah); and Yalkut Yosef<br>
(IV"H vol. 2, 84, 21).<br>
<br>
[3]Those who follow this leniency include the Kreisi U'Pleisi (Y"D 100, 4;<br>
he actually later retracts), Rav Shlomo Kluger (Shu"t Tuv Taam V'Daas (3,<br>
1, 160), the Ksav Sofer (Shu"t Y"D 63), the Imrei Baruch (Y"D beg. 100),<br>
the Mishkenos Yaakov (Shu"t Y"D 30), and the Aruch HaShulchan (Y"D 100,<br>
13-18).<br>
<br>
[4]This is a topic which will IY"H be explored fuller in a future article.<br>
<br>
[5]See previous footnote. Several authorities tried to find other hetterim<br>
including the Aruch Hashulchan's controversial take that since bugs<br>
are generally considered disgusting, they are immediately nullified;<br>
and the Kreisi U'Pleisi's (above, 2) and Avnei Nezer's (Shu"t Y"D 81,<br>
6) opinion that even a beryah has a din of bittul [not like the general<br>
consensus among the Shulchan Aruch (Y"D 100) and the main commentaries].<br>
<br>
[6]Yad Yehuda (Y"D 61, 63, 6).<br>
<br>
[7]Shu"t Igros Moshe (Y"D 4, end 2).<br>
__________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
For any questions, comments or for the full Mareh Mekomos / sources,<br>
please email the author: <a href="mailto:yspitz@ohr.edu">yspitz@ohr.edu</a><br>
<br>
Disclaimer: These are just a few basic guidelines and overview of<br>
the Halacha discussed in this article. This is by no means a complete<br>
comprehensive authoritative guide, but rather a brief summary to raise<br>
awareness of the issue. One should not compare similar cases in order<br>
to rules in any real case, but should refer his questions to a competent<br>
Halachic authority.<br>
__________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
L'iluy Nishmas the Rosh HaYeshiva - Rav Chonoh Menachem Mendel ben R'<br>
Yechezkel Shraga, Rav Yaakov Yeshaya ben R' Boruch Yehuda, and l'zchus<br>
for Shira Yaffa bas Rochel Miriam and her children for a yeshua teikef<br>
u'miyad! [43]Print<br>
<br>
? 1995-2013 Ohr Somayach International - All rights reserved.<br>
<br>
Articles may be distributed to another person intact without prior<br>
permission. We also encourage you to include this material in other<br>
publications, such as synagogue or school newsletters. Hardcopy or<br>
electronic....<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 14:02:01 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] synthetic meat<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20130801180201.GA21055@aishdas.org">20130801180201.GA21055@aishdas.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Thu, Aug 01, 2013 at 09:07:03AM -0400, M Cohen wrote:<br>
: beef stem cells are being used to grow synthetic meat<br>
: does this have a prob of eiver min hachai or (more likely) yotzei min<br>
: hachai?<br>
<br>
I am thinking this is like the question of the kashrus of maggots, as R'<br>
Dovid Lifshitz framed it in shiur in the mid-1980s. (Filtered through<br>
nearly 30 years of memory drift.)<br>
<br>
There RDL saw the question as whether the microscopic maggot eggs and<br>
early larvae have halachic import. If they do, then since the egg came<br>
from outside the meat, we can no longer hold that the maggots are made<br>
from the meat, and no longer permit them.<br>
<br>
But since (leshitaso) the eggs do not, then the only thing that brought<br>
the maggot from a kosher invisibly small thing to a maggot was the<br>
meat it ate since hatching, and therefore the treif bug was actually<br>
solely caused by the meat. And still as kosher as when we thought they<br>
reproduced literally abiogenetically.<br>
<br>
Here too.... I understand that we're starting with invisibly small<br>
"pieces" of cow. So if the egg connects the maggot found within the meat<br>
to its mother, then these cells would make the resulting meat a product<br>
of the source cow. And if not, not.<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
--<br>
Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;<br>
<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a> I do, then I understand." - Confucius<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org" target="_blank">http://www.aishdas.org</a> "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta<br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%28270%29%20514-1507" value="+12705141507">(270) 514-1507</a> "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:36:32 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero <<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] synthetic meat<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:51FAC6D0.3050808@sero.name">51FAC6D0.3050808@sero.name</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 1/08/2013 9:07 AM, M Cohen wrote:<br>
> beef stem cells are being used to grow synthetic meat<br>
><br>
> does this have a prob of eiver min hachai or (more likely) yotzei min<br>
> hachai?<br>
<br>
I would think it would be like yeast or yoghurt culture that we've discussed<br>
before. Basically cultured meat is really a sort of fungus, and should be<br>
both kosher and pareve.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and<br>
<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a> substantial reason' why he should be permitted to<br>
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all<br>
the reason he needs.<br>
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 21:32:12 -0400<br>
From: Eli Turkel <<a href="mailto:eliturkel@gmail.com">eliturkel@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Life iver<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAGDtJ1EEwqwiz+3n7mWM4ZSoR8kMYtAMXjRBJ_-fwrvX6juz=<a href="mailto:Q@mail.gmail.com">Q@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
>From what I have read there is no problem in giving someone food from a<br>
hasgacha that he uses but the giver doesn't as long as the hasgacha is a<br>
recognized one. Certainly things that are a machloket between mechaber and<br>
Raman. ROY will frequently pasken that something is allowed to sefardim and<br>
not Ashkenazim and vice versa<br>
<br>
The problem begins when you deny the legitimacy of the opposition. Thus the<br>
badatz paskens that someone who relies on heater mechira and does yeshiva<br>
has to masher all his dishes<br>
<br>
R Karelitz obviously feels that there is only side to the kosher phone<br>
issue.<br>
As if the owner had a heter for the phone I can only guess that he feels<br>
this a miut one not consider<br>
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Message: 6<br>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 21:59:27 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero <<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Life iver<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:51FB127F.6030806@sero.name">51FB127F.6030806@sero.name</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 1/08/2013 9:32 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:<br>
> From what I have read there is no problem in giving someone food from a hasgacha that he uses but the giver doesn't as long as the hasgacha is a recognized one.<br>
<br>
What does it mean that it's a recognised one? Usually it means that one<br>
accepts that its food is probably -- or even certainly -- kosher, and would<br>
eat it in an emergency, but prefers to be mehader when one can. The other<br>
person is not obligated to adopt the same hiddurim. But here we're discussing<br>
something that one holds is assur; the fact that there are poskim who permit<br>
it is a limud zechus for those who follow them, they are not baalei aveira,<br>
they are kosher le'eidus, one may rely on "stam keilim einan benei yoman" to<br>
eat in their homes, but the bottom line is that the food they're asking you to<br>
give them is (in your opinion) treif! It's assur, both to you and to them!<br>
The fact that they honestly believe it to be kosher, and that they have a<br>
*right* to believe that, only makes them all the more "blind" in the matter!<br>
So how can one put a stumbling block before them?<br>
<br>
If one is invited to dinner at the home of a Rhinelander, may one bring him<br>
the chelev of the stomach, that we hold is an issur kares, knowing that he<br>
will surely eat it?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and<br>
<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a> substantial reason' why he should be permitted to<br>
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all<br>
the reason he needs.<br>
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 17:09:40 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Life iver<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20130802210940.GA9067@aishdas.org">20130802210940.GA9067@aishdas.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Thu, Aug 01, 2013 at 09:32:12PM -0400, Eli Turkel wrote:<br>
: The problem begins when you deny the legitimacy of the opposition. Thus the<br>
: badatz paskens that someone who relies on heater mechira and does yeshiva<br>
: has to masher all his dishes<br>
<br>
Although if the phone were found in a beis medrash in Benei Braq, odds<br>
are very high the person who lost it /does/ hold by this pesaq.<br>
<br>
:-)BBii!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 17:49:31 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero <<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Life iver<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:51FC296B.6060008@sero.name">51FC296B.6060008@sero.name</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On Thu, Aug 01, 2013 at 09:32:12PM -0400, Eli Turkel wrote:<br>
> Thus the badatz paskens that someone who relies on heater mechira and<br>
> does teshuvah has to kasher all his dishes<br>
<br>
That raises an interesting question. Suppose you were a Rhinish Jew who<br>
has been eating what the rest of Jewry holds is chelev. At some point you<br>
either move into a community where this is not acceptable, or you conclude<br>
that your community's position is incorrect, and you stop eating it. Do you<br>
have to kasher your keilim? On the one hand, of course you do! You've<br>
been cooking chelev de'oraisa in them! It's an issur kares! On the other<br>
hand, for all these years, mainstream frum Jews have been eating at your<br>
home, from these very same keilim, relying on "stam keilim einan benei yoman".<br>
The Shulchan Aruch told them it was OK to do so. Now you have something even<br>
better -- you *know* your keilim are not benei yoman! So how can we say that<br>
you should not rely on that? How can we tell you to kasher keilim that we<br>
ourselves were willing to eat from before you "did teshuvah"?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and<br>
<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a> substantial reason' why he should be permitted to<br>
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all<br>
the reason he needs.<br>
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan<br>
<br>
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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 140<br>
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