[Avodah] Praying to angels

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 04:32:13PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Actaulyl we debated this. There are those who say taht mal'achim do NOT lakc
: behira but lack a yetzer horo

I phrased it as a machloqes between the Rambam and the OS on the Rambam,
in his essay "Hakol Tzadfui" on Hil' Teshuvah.

AISI, the OS is saying that mal'akhim have bechirah in theory, but there
are no decisions to be made. Much like REED's notion of having bechirah,
but only few decisions actually being at the nequdas habechirah where
conscious decisionmaking, ie bechirah chafshis, occurs.

In the first iteration of the discussion, RYGB suggested that perhaps
the Or Samei'ach would say that a mal'akh sent on a mission down here,
such that he as existence in both realms, could have bechirah. Such a
mal'ach could be fooled by the nature of this world, just like a person
could.

I don't know how one distinguishes this from the mal'akh who tells the
grass to grow, who doesn't have bechirah (as far as I can tell) and is
doing a mission on earth.

I also don't know how this comment by the OS fits his comment in the MC
on "betzalmeinu kidmuseinu", where he identified Tzelem E-lokim as
bechirah. Man is above angels, who are not betzelem. And yet, they were
given bechirah -- even if (contra RYGB) OS actually holds it was never
used?



On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 04:30:25PM +0200, Danny Schoemann wrote:
:> We do see cases of angels making mistakes. Some  examples:

:> - The Bnei Elohim were supposedly angles who seduced  humans

:> - The angels that went to destroy Sdom had to admit to Lot that  all
:> was not in their hands, after bragging they were in charge.

:> - In  Chagiga there's a story of the Angel of Death's gofer killing the
:> wrong  person - and it's made to sound like a non-rare occurrence.

On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 05:18:17PM -0400, T613K at aol.com wrote:
: I've always understood this kind of stories in a  "dibra Torah beloshon bnei 
: Adam" kind of way, that they are stories told as seen  from a human 
: perspective with lessons that we humans are supposed to learn from  them...

So you do believe that you can declare a story in the chumash an
allegory based on your own reasoning? I am surprised. Personally,
I would distinguish between the first two cases which are pesuqim in
chumash and the third, which is aggadita.

And I also personally would side with those who understand "benei
elohim" otherwise; such as RSRH's take that they were the rich sons of
the powerful. But RYGB used this case an example to prove his point
(above).

The mal'akhim's conversation to Lot could well have been a polemic
trick, rather than a sin.



But I believe all this is actually a detour. Who said the problem
addresses in the 5th ikkar has to do with free will? You would reach
the suprising (to me) conclusion that the Rambam would have less problem
with praying to angels than the mequbalim who defined benei elohim and/or
nefilim as mal'akhim who sinned.

If someone prays to something without bechirah, then the act is silly --
why ask something that has no choice? It would be like, "Rock, may it
be thy will not to fall when I let go of you." But the question wasn't
rationality, it was permissability. Even with free will, one is
a) assuming they can't relate to G-d directly, and
b) moving their attention away from Hashem and to someone/thing else.
Even if the something else was granted power by G-d to make decisions,
these two flaws exist.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
micha at aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fullfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH