[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Michael Makovi]

> RMM wrote:
>  > Obviously, one can never excuse himself as a TsN - how could one
>  > possibly do so? By definition, one ignorant enough to be a TsN, does
>  > not know how ignorant he is, nor does he know what a TsN is. If he
>  > does know how ignorant he is, or if he does know what a TsN is, he is
>  > too knowledgeable to be a TsN, and he knows it too.

>  Eh, didn't you - just a few days ago - post a link to a C clergyman who was
>  discussing RMF's teshuvah in a 18 web page paper? Would you call that guy
>  ignorant of what TsN is? I think that it is quite clear whom RMF was labeling
>  a kofeir, not your Sunday school classmates, but someone who can write 10
>  page papers quoting a large number of sources to justify C being kosher. I
>  don't know much about that author and am hesitant to label him without
>  extensive analysis, but you can get the gist of matters from what I write.
>
>  R' Arie Folger

1) I didn't post the link :)

2) As far as I could tell, RMF was labeling *both* kinds of people
kofrim - both the Sunday school classmate and the C clergyman.

3) You make a good point - a C clergyman can be TsN even though he
knows what TsN is. Very well then, let me emend what I said:
a) A TsN cannot call himself a TsN because he is too ignorant to know
what a TsN is.
OR
b) A TsN cannot call himself TsN because he honestly believes he is
correct (as does an apikorus, except the TsN has an excuse), and so he
wouldn't call himself a TsN - he won't try to justify his errors with
his TsN excuse if he doesn't think he has any errors!. If he calls
himself TsN to excuse his errors, then he knows he has errors, and
either he isn't a TsN anymore, or in any case he won't be R/C for very
long. Now, it could be that an R/C clergyman will mock an O in an
discussion by referring to himself as a TsN, thereby deflating the O's
attack on the R/C, but I'm not sure this is what R' Henkin meant...

About an R/C clergyman, I'd say that even with extensive textual
knowledge, they can still be TsN - they still have some deep-seated
ideological beliefs that are not so simply cleansed, especially if
they learned at HUC/JTS, which will only intensify what they learned
growing up. I gave the story of the two C clergymen/theological
students who turned O after a few months at Machon Meir - obviously
they learned *something* not taught at JTS.

Now, some R/C people may NOT be TsN, if they had an Orthodox
upbringing. Tzarich iyun.

Mikha'el Makovi