[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Daniel Eidensohn]

Michael Makovi wrote:
>>  > Well, as I said, I've seen numerous statements that a nonreligious Jew
>>  > today is a tinok she'nishba/shogeg, and bears no guilt for what he
>>  > does, b'klal. I am having trouble remembering exactly where I have
>>  > seen this (too many places; it's like asking where I read that pork is
>>  > treif), but I know Einayim Lirot (English translation from Urim: Eyes
>>  > to See) has a chapter on this.
>>  > Mikha'el Makovi
>>     
To reiterate. You are claiming that the individual members of  
Reform/Conservative have 1) the halachic status of  tinok shenishba and 
that consequently they bear  no guilt at for their actions which violate 
the Torah. However the correct use of the term tinok shenishba (Shabbos 
68a) is concerning one who is totally ignorant of being Jewish and of 
anything about Torah. Once they receive some knowledge they are 
responsible for not finding out more. It is questionable whether  they 
are still tinok shenishba after this point. From our perspective the 
issue is primarily whether we can aid them to do teshuva and whether 
they are a threat to our communities. They are not given a free pass 
that exempts them from mitzvos. Their rabbinical leadership is even more 
liable because they are much more aware  of their deviation from 
traditional Torah observance. It is also true that it is not always 
helpful to have direct confrontations - but that is a question of 
politics and sociology.

You provide 3 citations to support your contention

1) Dr.  Richard Joel - his statement is not about tinok shenishba nor 
does he refer to guilt. Not relevant

2) You cite an approbation of R' Zalman Nechemia Goldberg. Says nothing 
about tinok shenishba or guilt. Not relevant

3) You menton R' Kasher - without quoting what  he actually said - that 
non-religious Jews have the status of tinok shenishba. Also don't see 
the relevance. Does he say that therefore they bear  no guilt for their 
sins? 

These are not serious citations.

I have cited the Rambam, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Henkin and the Ginas 
Veradim and yet you have not produced a single posek who disagrees. At 
this point you said you are only not sure whether the Chazon Ish is 
understood as consistent with the others and is thus describing a tactic 
to get them to do teshuva - even though they are sinners.



Let me add a few more sources  that  clearly indicate the uneducated 
masses  bear guilt for sinning. I have more if these are not  adequate 
including the Radvaz, R' Ovadia Yosef, R'  Wosner, Tzitz  Eliezar.

*Igros Moshe (**Orech Chaim 4:91.6): **Question: *Is it permissible to 
make a minyan  in a room  of a Conservative synagogue which does not 
conduct themselves according to the halacha? *Answer*: There is a basic 
distinction that needs to be made. Concerning the Conservative 
synagogues it is not permitted  to make a minyan even in a different 
room since it is well known that they are a group who reject a number of 
laws of the Torah. The gemora (Avoda Zara 17a) says that one must stay 
far away from heretics, heresy and idolatry. Therefore even heretics 
for  one issue of the Torah are considered rejecters of the Torah as is 
stated in the Rambam(Hilchos Teshuva 3:8) and they have the full status 
of heretics as  is  stated in Hilchos Teshuva (3:6). Even though they 
are inadvertent heretics and are like tinok shenishba (captive children 
amongst non‑Jews) because they have been raised that way by their 
parents and  their surroundings. They therefore aren’t punished by 
Heaven and they aren't punished by being lowered into a pit and not 
taken out which is mentioned in the Rambam (Hilchos Rotzeach 4:10) as is 
stated in the Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3). Nevertheless they are 
heretics and it is necessary to stay away from them as is stated in 
Avoda Zara (17a). This that the Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) concludes by 
saying that these descendants of the original heretics who are tinok 
shenishba should be brought back to proper religious observance and they 
are to be drawn to this with peaceful words until they return to the 
correct practice of Torah is not relevant in their gathering places 
i.e., their synagogues which is not a place of repentance and not every 
person is appropriate for this. In contrast those Orthodox synagogues 
which are not run properly e.g., they don’t have a proper mechitza or 
they use a microphone are not – G‑d forbid – rejecters of these mitzvos. 
They simply don’t treat  them with proper seriousness even  though they 
essentially believe in all the mitzvos of the Torah  and  just over time 
came to incorrectly treat these prohibited things as something 
permitted. They are essentially good Jews and on occasion their 
non-observance of some mitzvos is totally inadvertent. Concerning the 
Orthodox Jews who are lax in their observance there is no requirement to 
keep away from them. Consequently it is permitted to make a separate 
minyan in a different room of their synagogue. That is permitted only if 
it is done in a manner that no one would suspect that they are praying 
in the  main sanctuary. For example if it has been publicized already or 
even before becoming well known if there is a separate entrance. 
Concerning whether it is appropriate to rebuke this latter group – if 
there is a reasonable possibility they will listen then they should be 
rebuked but if not it is better that they sin inadvertently.


*Binyan Tzion - New (#23): This is a theoretical halachic view which is 
not meant to be for actual practice… *Regarding Jewish sinners of our 
time, I am not sure what their halachic status is since due to our many 
sins the disease has spread so much that  the majority of them view 
Shabbos desecration to be permitted. Perhaps they have the halachic 
status of those who think what they are doing is entirely permitted 
(omer mutar) which is only close to being a deliberate sinner. There are 
some of them who pray on Shabbos and make Kiddush but afterwards they 
violate Shabbos by doing work prohibited by both the Torah and the 
Rabbis. The fact is that one who transgresses the laws of Shabbos is 
considered as a heretic because by rejecting Shabbos he is rejection 
Creation and the Creator. However this person is acknowledging Shabbos, 
Creation and the Creator through his prayers and making Kiddush. 
Furthermore their children who come after them - who have never known or 
even heard about the laws of Shabbos – are identical  to the Tzadokim 
who are not considered heretics even though they profane Shabbos because 
they are simple imitating the actions of their parents [and not because 
they are willfully transgressing Shabbos]. Thus they are considered like 
tinok shenishba (children who were captured by and raised amongst 
non‑Jews). This is mentioned in simon 385 and also the Mabit (1:37) 
writes, “It is also possible that even concerning the Tzadokim who do 
not normally live amongst Jews and therefore don’t know the basic 
aspects of the religion and are not disrespectful against the rabbis of 
the generation – are also not considered as violating the laws 
deliberately.” Many of the sinners  of the present generation are 
similar to them and are even better than them.  And this that R’ 
Shimshon was strict with the Karaites to consider their wine as 
non‑Jewish wine was not because they violated the holidays [because they 
had a different calendar] which is comparable to violating Shabbos. 
Rather he was stringent with them because they rejected fundamental 
principles of Judaism such a the way of doing circumcision and they 
didn’t accept the laws of divorce and marriage – which caused  their 
children to be mamzerim. However concerning these fundamentals, the 
majority of sinners in our day have not transgressed them. Consequently 
in my humble opinion those who wish to treat the touching of wine by 
these modern sinners as prohibited stam wine  - they should be blessed. 
However even those who are lenient in this matter have authorities to 
justify their actions - as long as it has not been determined that these 
transgressors actually know about the laws of Shabbos and are arrogantly 
violating Shabbos in the presence of 10 Jews. If that is true than it is 
definite that they are full heretics and the wine they touch is prohibited.


*Yabiya Omer(3:21):*Greater than this we find concerning the Karaites of 
modern times who are considered tinok shenishba amongst the non‑Jews. 
Nevertheless if they are warned about their transgressions but they 
don’t want to return to observing the Oral Torah they are to be killed. 
This is stated in the Mishna LeMelech (Hilchos Malve v’loveh 5:2) in the 
name of the Mabit and the Radvaz. This is also the view of Maharam ben 
Chaviv in Kol Gadol (#27). Nevertheless they are invalid to serve as 
witnesses as  is stated in the Maharksh (#33). And this is surely true 
concerning those non‑observant Jews who are found amongst us and they 
see that the religious woman cover their har and wear modest clothing. 
Therefore it is certain that after they have been warned and cautioned 
regarding religious observance they are considered as deliberately 
transgressing the Torah. And even R’ Akiva Eiger who permits those who 
shave with a razor to be witnesses because they don’t think that shaving 
is prohibited – that is only where they have not been warned against the 
practise. However if they were informed that they are not valid 
witnesses because of shaving it is clear from his teshuva  that they are 
invalid witnesses. … And  surely where the beis din warns her and 
instructs here that an action is completely prohibited – if she 
transgresses what she was warned about she is divorced and doesn’t 
receive her kesubah because she is viewed as deliberately sinning and 
there is no greater religious transgression than this.