[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Michael Makovi]

Responding to R' Daniel Eidensohn:

>  You provide 3 citations to support your contention
>
>  1) Dr.  Richard Joel - his statement is not about tinok shenishba nor
>  does he refer to guilt. Not relevant

But he clearly implies guiltlessness. But I'll agree with you that
he's not a posek. I brought him merely to show the widespread MO
consensus on this.

>  2) You cite an approbation of R' Zalman Nechemia Goldberg. Says nothing
>  about tinok shenishba or guilt. Not relevant

I don't recall doing so. I brought Einayim Lirot, Rav Kook, and Rav
Hirsch, but I do not recall bringing R' ZNG.

>  3) You menton R' Kasher - without quoting what  he actually said - that
>  non-religious Jews have the status of tinok shenishba. Also don't see
>  the relevance. Does he say that therefore they bear  no guilt for their
>  sins?

I was bringing R' Kasher merely to support my previous statement that
Rav Kook holds like Chazon Ish - we already saw that Chazon Ish holds
today's nonreligious are TsN.

R' Kasher went on to say (and this I did not bring) that because the
nonreligious today are not those those of yore, they are not
considered sinners vis. a vis. the building of the state and therefore
associating with the state is not considered associating with sinners.
Perhaps we could derive from this that todays nonreligious are not
considered sinners at all (since associating with their state does not
equal associating with sinners), but I would need to see R' Kasher
inside more extensively to draw such a far-reaching conclusion. Given
what I have of his (in R' Student's quotation), I am comfortable only
with R' Kasher's connection between Chazon Ish and Rav Kook.

>  These are not serious citations.

Chazon Ish, Ravs Hirsch and Kook, Einayim Lirot, these are not
serious? I've got three gedolei ha-dor who led entire sectors of
modern Jewry! (I honestly don't know how much R' Schwarz counts.)
Plus, Rabbi Henkin says the majority of poskim follow Chazon Ish even
if there is a significant dissension from Reb Moshe et al.

And Einayim Lirot brings Ramban that an age could arrive when people
honestly and sincerely and innocently believe that the Torah is no
longer relevant or applicable. So I *perhaps* have Ramban on my side
too.

>  I have cited the Rambam, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Henkin and the Ginas
>  Veradim and yet you have not produced a single posek who disagrees. At
>  this point you said you are only not sure whether the Chazon Ish is
>  understood as consistent with the others and is thus describing a tactic
>  to get them to do teshuva - even though they are sinners.

Rabbi Henkin said that the majority of poskim follow Hazon Ish in
declaring today's nonreligious to be TsN.

I said nothing about being sure or not sure about anything Hazon Ish
said. Could you please elaborate? You seem to be suggesting that Hazon
Ish may have only said what he said to encourage teshuva, but that he
thought like Reb Moshe that they are nevertheless mamash sinners.
Could you please explain?

>  *Igros Moshe (**Orech Chaim 4:91.6

Reb Moshe here could be read as simply saying that they are not at
fault/to blame for their sins, but nevertheless, one must practically
distance himself from them to avoid being influenced etc. - i.e.
theoretically they are sinless but nevertheless we must practically
behave towards them in a certain way commensurate with their practical
behavior. We already know Reb Moshe does not hold like this, because
of the citation of his from elsewhere, but just for the record, I'd
note his ambiguity here.

>  *Binyan Tzion - New (#23):

This source actually supports *me*, as far as I can tell:

>  Furthermore their children who come after them [them = those who knew Shabbat etc. but > did not keep it]- who have never known or
>  even heard about the laws of Shabbos – are identical  to the Tzadokim
>  who are not considered heretics even though they profane Shabbos because
>  they are simple imitating the actions of their parents [and not because
>  they are willfully transgressing Shabbos]. Thus they are considered like
>  tinok shenishba (children who were captured by and raised amongst
>  non‑Jews).
> ...........
> However concerning these fundamentals, the
>  majority of sinners in our day have not transgressed them. Consequently
>  in my humble opinion those who wish to treat the touching of wine by
>  these modern sinners as prohibited stam wine  - they should be blessed.
>  However even those who are lenient in this matter have authorities to
>  justify their actions - as long as it has not been determined that these
>  transgressors actually know about the laws of Shabbos and are arrogantly
>  violating Shabbos in the presence of 10 Jews. If that is true than it is
>  definite that they are full heretics and the wine they touch is prohibited.

It seems very clear from this that today's sinners, who undoubtedly do
NOT know the laws of Shabbat, and are NOT being arrogant, etc., are
full TsN according to him.

Similarly, Einayim Lirot connects innocent children Tzadukim/Kara'im
to today's nonreligious, and brands them all as innocent guiltless
TsN.

>  *Yabiya Omer(3:21)

I will agree with you that he definitely holds like Reb Moshe. But,
could you please tell me who Binyan Tzion and Yabiya Omer are?

Mikha'el Makovi