[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Michael Makovi]

> R' Daniel Eidensohn
> Concerning the spiritual status of tinok shenishba
>
>  *Shabbat (68b): ...
>
>  The halacha is is ... they have sinned and
>  require a korbon even though there was no way that the tinok shenishba
>  would know about Shabbos.

Doesn't hurt my case (that a TsN is innocent)- saying a TsN has sinned
and needs kappara is analogous to saying that any shogeg is a sinner -
if one is troubled by the fact that a TsN needs kappara, he'll be
troubled just as much by the fact that if Shimon accidentally eats
chelev and dam he needs kappara.


>  It is problematic to understand the Rambam as viewing tinok shenisha as
>  blameless.
>
>  *Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) ...and people should not be quick to kill them.
>
>  See the index to sources on the Frankel Rambam that understand that if
>  they don't repent they can be killed

Indeed, Rambam says you shouldn't be quick to kill them, which he
implies that he is rather ambivalent about their right to live. So
indeed, he doesn't seem to see them as blameless.

>  Similarly the Chazon Ish is widely understood to view them as blameless
>  - but that is not what he actually says
>
>  *Chazon Ish**[i]* <#_edn1>*(Hilchos Shechita 2:16): *I believe that the
>  legal permission to kill heretics only exists in a period of time where
>  G‑d's Providence is revealed to everyone. ...  In such circumstances,
>  the destruction of the wicked served the clear purpose of improving the
>  world. Everyone knew that corrupt moral and violating religious
>  commandments brought about suffering in the world such as plague, war
>  and famine. However at a time when there is the absence of such clear
>  awareness of the importance of spirituality, then killing heretics does
>  not bring about improvement but rather makes things worse. ...
>  Thus in our current situation, we are obligated to bring the
>  non‑observant back to the light of religion—with acts of love and
>  affection to the best of our ability.

But Chazon Ish seems to be speaking of heretics, not TsN - he never
says TsN - he says "heretic" and "nonobservant", which in the context
would seem to mean apikorsim b'meizid. I'd completely agree with him
that for a b'meizid mamash apikorus, we ought to kill him in theory
but not nowadays due to practical considerations, and instead we
should do kiruv - for meizid apikorsim!

I don't know from this source what the Chazon Ish holds about the
nonobservant today, but I'd wager a guess that "at a time when there
is the absence of such clear awareness of the importance of
spirituality", and at a time when "G‑d's Providence is {not} revealed
to everyone" and "when miracles are {not} common and they all {have
not} heard the Bas Kol (Heavenly
Voice) and they saw {not} and acknowledged {not} the unique Providence for the
righteous of the generation", I'll wager he considers them innocent
TsN that should not be killed - I believe R' Cardozo in Thoughts to
Ponder vol. 1 quotes this very Chazon Ish to make the same case I am
making.

>  Both the Rambam and Chazaon Ish obviously undertstand that tinok
>  shenishba are in fact sinners - but there is greater benefit in being
>  nice to them and having them rejoin religious society than in treating
>  them harshly. In fact being harsh would cause major damage to society.
>
>  We are talking about tactics in teshuva and tochacha - not about whether
>  they are blameless and innocent.

Rambam I'll agree with you. Chazon Ish, based on what you've shown so
far, I will not agree with you.

Mikha'el Makovi