[Avodah] ashkenaz and sefard

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 03:14:25PM +0100, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Ashekanzic Liturgy kept Kallir from Israel and Meshulam Ben Kalonymos
: of Lucca Italy. IT is fairly well-established fact that Ashkenaz
: ,looked up to Italy and Italy to Israel in terms of Minhaggim etc.

Well, the piyutim from MbK might indicate something. But the baalei
Tosafos identified R Eliezer haKalir with R' Eliezer ben RSbY, whereas
Sepharadim did not. That would be sufficient to explain why Ashkenazim
would use his work more than Sepharadim, without positing ancestry.

It's very hard to posit ancestry off something as flimsy as use of
piyutim. Things like berakhos endings are somewhat stronger. And the
increasing number of cases where Ashkenazi norms end up fitting midrashei
halakhah or the Y-mi more closely than the Bavli seems to fit scientific
method -- confirming the hypothesis by further experiment.

: The usual claim is much stronger. That ashkenaz ie German Rhineland
: Jewry actually came there from Italy and that Italian 800 CE Jews came
: there from EY.

Much of them. Not all. My understanding is that Ashkenaz is understood
to be a richer mix of EY Jews than Sepharad. Not exclusivity. This is
why RGMhG links back to the gaonim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
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