[Avodah] ashkenaz and sefard

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 03:14:25PM +0100, Eli Turkel wrote:
> : Ashekanzic Liturgy kept Kallir from Israel and Meshulam Ben Kalonymos
> : of Lucca Italy. IT is fairly well-established fact that Ashkenaz
> : ,looked up to Italy and Italy to Israel in terms of Minhaggim etc.
>
> Well, the piyutim from MbK might indicate something. But the baalei
> Tosafos identified R Eliezer haKalir with R' Eliezer ben RSbY, whereas
> Sepharadim did not. That would be sufficient to explain why Ashkenazim
> would use his work more than Sepharadim, without positing ancestry.
>

Backwards.  it was ALREADY axiomatic how impoartant Kallir ws before the
attribution to being a Ba'alei Tosafos!




>
> It's very hard to posit ancestry off something as flimsy as use of
> piyutim.


hardly flimsy at all it is a major contoversy in Tur wher he qutoes Remah
[with a HEH!}  This is a pivotal difference betwen Ashkenzic and Sepahrdic
litrugy,. the idea of hefkse for Yotzros.
All Ashkneazic Rishonim  accepted it as OK.  Sephardim rejectdd it



> Things like berakhos endings are somewhat stronger. And the
> increasing number of cases where Ashkenazi norms end up fitting midrashei
> halakhah or the Y-mi more closely than the Bavli seems to fit scientific
> method -- confirming the hypothesis by further experiment.
>
> : The usual claim is much stronger. That ashkenaz ie German Rhineland
> : Jewry actually came there from Italy and that Italian 800 CE Jews came
> : there from EY.
>
> Much of them. Not all. My understanding is that Ashkenaz is understood
> to be a richer mix of EY Jews than Sepharad.


I am not concerned with the  ANCESTRY, just the LEGACY. Ashkenaz by and
large folowed EY norms.  Sehaprad  - based upon Babylonian objections did
not [not all objections were Talmudic some were Gaonic]



> Not exclusivity. This iswhy RGMhG links back to the gaonim.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

This is not a perfect 1 to 1 mapping. E>G> Rashi was more Bave-centric than
most Ashekanzic Kadmonim

I'm not sure about RGMhG because aiui he puts a higher  value on Midrrahs
Rabbaetc. than did others and that is EY-Centric


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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