[Avodah] Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch

[Jonathan Baker]

RMi:
> On Wed, February 13, 2008 3:54 pm, R Jonathan Baker wrote:

> : A friend mentioned that they do mac & cheese for Shabbat lunch.  With
> : the stipulation that one may reheat (I know many don't) dry food, is
> : mac-and-cheese considered dry or wet for reheating purposes?  Pointers
> : to sources?  If it's reasonable, we may try it.
 
> A more common example that I think would parallel the bishul issue...
> Would you reheat chicken in a pan which also contains the congealed
> chicken fat, or does the fact that it will melt when reheated make it
> a daver lach?
 
> The MB and Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasah prohibit.

Ah, but is it parallel?  And what's the reasoning for the MB and SSK?
And where?  I'm looking at SSK 1:17 (with note 58) and he doesn't allow
reheating from the fridge at all.

IIRC, lachluchis and shamnunis are not identical.  And incidental
lachluchis, at least according to the Aish.edu website, is not a 
problem - so I imagine if you don't reheat the chicken in the juice/fat,
any incidental drops that fall off are considered part of the solid
food.

> Another question would be the definition of liquid. Is the melted
> cheese lach even once melted? There seems to be two definitions
 
> Here one might be able to distinguish between mac and cheese and
> chicken fat. Melted cheese is gooey, not wet to the touch. And some

is something gooshy a davar goosh?

> cheeses won't simply fall off the noodles. Think of mozzarella making
> strings to your fork...

Debbie remembers eating pareve quiches on shabbos at other peoples'
houses, and there the lachluchis from the egg or the vegetables is
more clearly present.
 
> Last, I leave as an exercise to the reader exactly how much you have
> to enjoy mac-n-cheese more than fleishig to overrule ein simchah ela
> bebasar.

I dunno, sometimes one gets tired of meat.  Isn't that part of the lesson
of the slav?  That getting doctrinaire about meat when it's not necessary
is not good?  God gives us slav until it's coming out our ears - clearly
one can get tired of meat.  We have a set of Shabbos recipes, and some-
times, after 17 years, you want a bit of a change.

And that's aside from special diets, such as the gout diet, which avoids
meat and many fish.  During the gout diet, over a summer, we ate a lot
of dairy salads for Shabbos lunch, so that big salads with some kind of
protein, be it cheese or meat or fish, became our standard Shabbos lunch
in the summer.
 
From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
> Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> > It would obviously count as Mat'amim, but the zemir says "Basar, 
> > v'Dagim" first.
 
> And the other zemer says "taanugim" before "barburim, slav", and
> only after that "dagim".  And yet another one puts "lechem" before
> "yayin tov", and "basar" before "dagim".  Indeed, even the one you
> cite puts "basar" before "dagim"!  What a dilemma this presents us
> with!  Fortunately the zemiros have not been added to the sources of
> halacha, and "ein mukdam um'uchar" in poetry.

OTOH, RYBS does talk about using piyutim as halachic sources.  The
yotzer for Shabbat Hagadol expresses at least one opinion which is at
odds with current practice; it's been a long time since I looked at
it, so I don't remember what it was, but RRW could probably tell you.
And IIRC Atah Conanta vs. Amitz Coach exhibit divergent traditions about
Temple practice.  But zmiros seem a lot more random, like Lehrer's "The
Elements" or the Animaniacs' song about the 50 States, grouping things
for rhyme or rhythm.

When I noted there was not much constructive advice here, Debbie's 
response: That's because they're all MEN!

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker at panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com