[Avodah] Religious participation in govt. today

[Doron Beckerman]

As a spin-off from the what a Torah govt. would look like, I just skimmed a
very interesting piece of Torah, all sourced, from a Charedi RY (written in
the 80s I think) advocating a total separation of religion and state, and
just focusing on Kiruv Levavos like in America. Not because Kefiyah Datit is
wrong, but because it is counter-productive. He makes a very interesting
case that all the  benefits of having the State involved in religion are
really illusory:

1) Marriage and Divorce:
Kidushin - the Chilonim are violating Kares anyhow - so what if she isn't a
Penuyah. Halitehu LaRasha...
Gitin - W/o Siddur Kiddushin in  the first place they would be Panui and
Penuyah, and we have no Chazakah of Ain Adam Oseh Beilaso etc. for these
people, and there is alot of room to be lenient that there is no requirement
for a Get.
(There may be  a percentage who would marry by a Rav and when one side
refuses to give a Get they will live in sin, but even so, the people who are
distant from Emunah have ways to circumvent the law and do what they please
anyway.

With all that, the Sinah that it engenders with claims of religious
coercion, when we should concentrate on Kiruv Levavos, isn't worth it.

2) Shabbos and Yom Tov:
No public buses on Shabbos just means drivers who drive home after Shekia on
Fri night and driving early before the end of Shabbos to start the run on
Motzaei Shabbos immediately. Many more private cars and cabs on Shabbos
really is more Chillul Shabbos.

3) Sale of pork:
They are eating things that are as bad as Chazir or worse anyhow. He has
strong words here: "The very effort for this law in particularm shows that
it is not Halachah which is the driving force, rather the national emotion
and revulsion from Chazir in particular... one who gives reasons of national
unity, or Shabbos being a wonderful day of family bonding, or flying in the
skies with a plane of the State with an Israeli flag is in opposition to the
pride of the Nation, (!!!), is a distortion of Torah, emptying it of all its
holiness, and is driving a wedge between the Giver of the Torah and His
Torah.

4) Abortions:
The law is not limited to Pikuach Nefesh anyway - just "health concerns". So
now that the religious were Maskim to this the Chillul Hashem and Ziyuf
HaTorah is far worse!  A woman who wants an abortion will do it anyway. The
doctor will say it was a health risk.

The whole concept forces the Rabbinate to accept compromises on the Torah,
because there is the threat of cancellation of the above laws which are
considered sacrosanct. Kabbalas Gerim is constantly being affected by
extra-Halachic concerns due to the will of the govt. on this issue. The
whole "Who is a Jew" conflict should be utterly irrelevant - just don't
follow what the Teudat Zehut says and have our own files. Intermarriage is
done anyway and will continue at a quickening pace (never mind all the
Russian gentiles that were imported) - the only Eitzah is Chinuch. We can't
lower the threshold for Giyur which Halachah requires (he's obviously
requiring full Kabbalas Torah UMitzvos) for the sake of preventing
intermarriage - such means of distortion of Halachah cannot be acceptable
even for such a goal. If a person knows a Jew who is going to marry a
non-Jewess, and he has the opportunity to marry him to a Jewess who will not
keep Taharas HaMishpachah, this RY holds that it is Assur to offer him this
Shidduch because of Lifnei Iver. (He discusses the well-known Rambam in
Isurei Biah, and says that the RESULT of marrying a gentile is worse, but
the AVERAH of Beilas NIddah is worse, and for Lifnei Iver the only thing
that matters is the Aveirah.

5) About the claim that we cannot give the impression that we are Maskim to
such violatins as above, even if the practical benefit is negligible,
because of the Chillul Hashem of not having such laws. He says that a State
that says that it is Muttar for a Jew to violate Shabbos in public, Muttar
to be an atheist, Muttar to have consensual illicit relations, that
hesitates to place the Name of Hashem on its Megillat Atzmaut, we can't be
responsible to place a "Dati" sign on such a State and adorn it with some
religious legislation, its just a sham which magnifies the falsehood and is
a Nezem Zahav B'Af Chazir. The only way to avoid the Chillul Hashem is by
declaring that these laws and lawmakers do not reflect the eternal Jewish
Nation in existence since Sinai who say that this Nation is a Nation only by
virtue of its Torah.

There is never any license to be Mattir anything which is Assur for the sake
of a perceived greater good - that's the RBSHO's Cheshbon. (Lots of sources
for this - Meiri Sanhedrin 7a a very interesting one)

There is no Chiyuv Tochachah on these Tinokos Shenishbu, the laws don't
count as Tochachah anyway, and they are just causing the irreligious to be
Nichshal in Lo Tisna... And we can't force them based on Afrushei MeIssura
either - it doesn't work L'Maaseh.

He emphasizes that we have no MORAL problem with religious coercion - just
as the police prevent parents from killing their own children - but L'Maaseh
since we can't do it we are Pattur.

He then goes on to explain the good of this separation,  I think they are
fairly clear to people who grew up in Anglo countries.
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