As a spin-off from the what a Torah govt. would look like, I just skimmed a very interesting piece of Torah, all sourced, from a Charedi RY (written in the 80s I think) advocating a total separation of religion and state, and just focusing on Kiruv Levavos like in America. Not because Kefiyah Datit is wrong, but because it is counter-productive. He makes a very interesting case that all the benefits of having the State involved in religion are really illusory:<br>
<br>1) Marriage and Divorce:<br>Kidushin - the Chilonim are violating Kares anyhow - so what if she isn't a Penuyah. Halitehu LaRasha...<br>Gitin - W/o Siddur Kiddushin in the first place they would be Panui and Penuyah, and we have no Chazakah of Ain Adam Oseh Beilaso etc. for these people, and there is alot of room to be lenient that there is no requirement for a Get.<br>
(There may be a percentage who would marry by a Rav and when one side refuses to give a Get they will live in sin, but even so, the people who are distant from Emunah have ways to circumvent the law and do what they please anyway.<br>
<br>With all that, the Sinah that it engenders with claims of religious coercion, when we should concentrate on Kiruv Levavos, isn't worth it.<br> <br>2) Shabbos and Yom Tov:<br>No public buses on Shabbos just means drivers who drive home after Shekia on Fri night and driving early before the end of Shabbos to start the run on Motzaei Shabbos immediately. Many more private cars and cabs on Shabbos really is more Chillul Shabbos.<br>
<br>3) Sale of pork:<br>They are eating things that are as bad as Chazir or worse anyhow. He has strong words here: "The very effort for this law in particularm shows that it is not Halachah which is the driving force, rather the national emotion and revulsion from Chazir in particular... one who gives reasons of national unity, or Shabbos being a wonderful day of family bonding, or flying in the skies with a plane of the State with an Israeli flag is in opposition to the pride of the Nation, (!!!), is a distortion of Torah, emptying it of all its holiness, and is driving a wedge between the Giver of the Torah and His Torah.<br>
<br>4) Abortions:<br>The law is not limited to Pikuach Nefesh anyway - just "health concerns". So now that the religious were Maskim to this the Chillul Hashem and Ziyuf HaTorah is far worse! A woman who wants an abortion will do it anyway. The doctor will say it was a health risk.<br>
<br>The whole concept forces the Rabbinate to accept compromises on the Torah, because there is the threat of cancellation of the above laws which are considered sacrosanct. Kabbalas Gerim is constantly being affected by extra-Halachic concerns due to the will of the govt. on this issue. The whole "Who is a Jew" conflict should be utterly irrelevant - just don't follow what the Teudat Zehut says and have our own files. Intermarriage is done anyway and will continue at a quickening pace (never mind all the Russian gentiles that were imported) - the only Eitzah is Chinuch. We can't lower the threshold for Giyur which Halachah requires (he's obviously requiring full Kabbalas Torah UMitzvos) for the sake of preventing intermarriage - such means of distortion of Halachah cannot be acceptable even for such a goal. If a person knows a Jew who is going to marry a non-Jewess, and he has the opportunity to marry him to a Jewess who will not keep Taharas HaMishpachah, this RY holds that it is Assur to offer him this Shidduch because of Lifnei Iver. (He discusses the well-known Rambam in Isurei Biah, and says that the RESULT of marrying a gentile is worse, but the AVERAH of Beilas NIddah is worse, and for Lifnei Iver the only thing that matters is the Aveirah.<br>
<br>5) About the claim that we cannot give the impression that we are Maskim to such violatins as above, even if the practical benefit is negligible, because of the Chillul Hashem of not having such laws. He says that a State that says that it is Muttar for a Jew to violate Shabbos in public, Muttar to be an atheist, Muttar to have consensual illicit relations, that hesitates to place the Name of Hashem on its Megillat Atzmaut, we can't be responsible to place a "Dati" sign on such a State and adorn it with some religious legislation, its just a sham which magnifies the falsehood and is a Nezem Zahav B'Af Chazir. The only way to avoid the Chillul Hashem is by declaring that these laws and lawmakers do not reflect the eternal Jewish Nation in existence since Sinai who say that this Nation is a Nation only by virtue of its Torah. <br>
<br>There is never any license to be Mattir anything which is Assur for the sake of a perceived greater good - that's the RBSHO's Cheshbon. (Lots of sources for this - Meiri Sanhedrin 7a a very interesting one)<br>
<br>There is no Chiyuv Tochachah on these Tinokos Shenishbu, the laws don't count as Tochachah anyway, and they are just causing the irreligious to be Nichshal in Lo Tisna... And we can't force them based on Afrushei MeIssura either - it doesn't work L'Maaseh.<br>
<br>He emphasizes that we have no MORAL problem with religious coercion - just as the police prevent parents from killing their own children - but L'Maaseh since we can't do it we are Pattur.<br> <br>He then goes on to explain the good of this separation, I think they are fairly clear to people who grew up in Anglo countries.<br>