[Avodah] Ribis and LH re: Non Jews - Crossing Threads

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, January 14, 2008 11:01 pm, R Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Let me reiterate what I consider a core Torah Princciple - Kedoshim
: [QTYD} is about fostering a mamleches kohanim vgomer
: Or as I term it" Aa JUST and HOLY society"

I don't think you mean all QTYD. Ve'asisa hatov vehayashar and
vehalakhta bidrakhav are inherent in what it means to be a moral
tzelem E-lokim, not specific to beris Sinai.

: As a SOCIETY" Ribis and LH would foster eretz ochecls yoshveha c"v...

Well, the requirement for them to have a gov't with a legal and penal
system is all about benei Noach not having a country in which people
eat each other alive. (BTW, thanks for showing the connection between
the meraglim's statement and that mishnah.)

: We must
: have a co-operative and mutally respectful [even LOVING] society all
: based upon v'havta lerei'acha kamocha etc.....  Thus we have a strict
: code of conductt to foster achicha, amecha. amisecha, etc.

Ribis is clearly stated in the pasuq as being about "achikha", so the
basic notion is incontrovertible. But is that qedushah, or unity due
to areivus? IOW, it's more about the need to work together for the
common end than the qedushah itself.

I am trying to defend the argument that the Jewish individual has a
different mission even as an individual than a non-Jew does in
addition to the different role he has qua member of BY.

I have problems with claiming the difference is only as a member of
the nation. A Jew on a desert island, and thus out of contact with all
other people, who eats treif in total privacy, would still have to
bring a chatas. A non-Jew who does the same would not. One can argue
that he is still mystically connected to the Jewish masses, but that's
far from anything R' Leibowitz would have said.

And so, I would disagree on two points:

1- It's a bit much to say there is no chiyuv on Benei Noach to
maintain a unified and cooperating society. It defies the implication
of one of the 7 mitzvos, which requires a lawful one.

2- It is a leap from saying that beris Sinai created a notion of a
Jewish corporate entity and mission to saying that the role of the Jew
is only in terms of that corporate entity and mission.

And, given that there are at least two berisim specific to Jews,
perhaps there is explicitly one of each.

For example:
...
: Think of Am Yisroel as a big family and that behavior within that unit
: must be on a very high plane.  Behavior re: Gentiles is held to a much
: looser standard so long as it does not produce Hillul Hashem, violate
: gezel, or damge one's own nehsama, there is more room to maneuver.

Being unhelpful to a stranger is less damage to one's own neshamah
than being equally unhelpful to family. The latter far more reinforces
basic callousness.

Thus, the two aren't really separable.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv