[Avodah] Nishtaneh Hateva in modern women

[hankman]

Cm wrote:
>BTW, it seems to be generally accepted that we already apply the idea of
>nishtane hateva wrt to the menstrual cycle of modern women as different from
>that in the time of chazal.

RMSS responded:
Could you elaborate? If you are referring to vest kavauh, the nishtaneh
was (at least in major part) the invention of indoor electric lighting.
A woman can induce more regular periods if she goes to sleep at sundown
with the light in the room reflecting the moons light; i.e. a full moon
= a small night light, no moon = darkness.

Also R'n CL wrote previously in this thread:
I don't know that this is "generally accepted".  I have heard a number
of poskim say that it is not nishtane hateva, but better nutrition that
has led to changes

To which I [CM] responded:
I agree. Let me rephrase. Most will agree that the facts on the ground today
are different than they were in the time of Chazal. Some ascribe this to
nishtane hateva, while others ascribe this to better nutrition in modern
times

I [CM] now respond but modify somewhat:
The implication from all our discussions above is that there is Nishtane Hateva on the one hand while on the other hand there may be various causes for the change other than Nishtane Hateva, e.g., better nutrition, electric lighting etc.

Upon thinking about this further, I am not sure if our collective thinking on this is correct. Does Nishtane Hateva mean that there was some fundamental change in the nature of things as opposed to some directly identifiable cause for the change? I rather doubt this. Rather, these are the agents that have caused the Teva we see to change. I suspect that in all cases of the use of this term, no fundamental change to nature have occurred. Just some circumstance has changed causing nature to follow some slightly modified path with a different end result. Thus in our case above the Teva is Nishtane and the reason for the shinui may be better nutrition or electricity etc. One might choose to use the term [Nishtane Hateva] only when the specific cause of the change is unknown and not use the term when the cause is known. But the process is the same either way. Either way, the resultant natural phenomenon we observe is the result of some changed circumstance or cascade of circumstances that follow the SAME unchanged biological or physical laws, but render the result we see now that is different from that seen in the time of chazal, the Avos and earlier.

The cases where nishtane hateva is variously applied that I can come up with off the top of my head that fit this picture.
a) Anakim in Chumash
b) Lifesapn prior to the Avos
c) Sizes of eggs, olives etc. and therefore shiurim
d) Veset kavua
e) Survival of 8 month fetus born prematurely
f) Nursing cow give birth to bechor  (see Machatsis HaShekel, SA OH 173; YD 316:3)
g) Yoledes letes chadoshim ain yoledes lemekuto'in (same MH, OH 173; Remoh, SA EH 156:4)
h) Treifa can not survive twelve months or give birth (consider modern technology, surgery and transplants)
i) Certain lobes in the lung make an animal a treifa (see Tos. Chulin 47a)
j) 2 year old cow give birth (see Tos, AZ 24b)
k) No breathing = sign of death (for some?)
l) The mishna of Ubra shehericha (my addition assuming I am right)

Other cases where this is used might not fit as well. Generally the cases where modern science seems to conflict with divrei chazal:
m) Spontaneous generation, Lice etc. (Some would not apply that here, but some do)
n) Medical cures of chazal (some could fit in the first category as well, Noda beYehuda that cures are now ineffective due to climate change?)
o) Differences in human and animal anatomy between chazal and modern biology. e.g., use of nishtane hateva by CI to explain the contradiction between the gemara and science about
the connection between the urinal and semen tracts [from archive post by R Eli Turkel]
p) Various sakonos like fish and meat together (see Magen Avraham SA OH 173)
q) Things that cause loss of memory
r) Carbon dating
s) Many more that I can not remember or never heard of.

You can obviously easily quibble with the way I have categorized these. 

Any additions to this list that readily come to mind?

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster



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