[Mesorah] Emet Trops

Wed Nov 22 01:34:26 PST 2023

What an extraordinarily advanced level of discussion!

I don’t see how your alternative explanations to Rav Breuer’s presentation of the exceptions could be what is behind this.

An Etnahta never divides an entire verse, if there are 6 words or more to the left of the main division. In the verse here, there are 11 words to the left of the first word. Consequently, it seems to me unreasonable to suggest that an Etnahta is being replaced. Furthermore, proposing that an Oleh Ve’Yored then divides the left of what might have been an Etnahta, seems even more unlikely. Even musically, I somehow doubt that it would have been plausible to chant and Etnahta, followed by an Oleh Ve'yored. Say, like singing a Zakef after a Tipha.

Rav Breuer’s presentation, on the other hand, suggests a relatively simple anomaly: oops, Pazer instead of Azla-Geresh as a Temura to an Oleh Ve'yored.

Of course, the extra Oleh Ve'yored to the left complicates that explanation. But it remains easier to digest an Oleh Ve'yored dividing the domain of a temura of another Oleh Ve'yored; than Oleh Ve'yored dividing the domain of a temura of an Etnahta.

Perhaps the exception could be explained as an influence of the Psalm appearing 3 chapters earlier (Tehillim 25):

לְדָוִ֡ד אֵלֶ֥יךָ יְ֝דוָ֗ד נַפְשִׁ֥י אֶשָּֽׂא

Best,

Yitzhak

From: Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org> On Behalf Of galsaba--- via Mesorah
Sent: Tuesday, 21 November 2023 3:25 PM
To: Yitzchak Gottlieb <zukigottlieb at gmail.com>
Cc: mesorah at aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Emet Trops

Very nice !

I am not sure if Breuer was right about these two verses.

No doubt that these two are exceptions.

The question is, what is the exception?

Is it what Breuer wrote in his book?

Or

Pazer in these two verses came instead of Etnach, and the exception is that here we have Etnach to the right side of Ole Veyored, and we have two Etnach in one pasuk.

Either way, it shows us that Pazer and Azla LeGarme are not complete Temurot.

thanks

Aharon Gal

201-414-7190

On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 07:28:43 AM EST, Yitzchak Gottlieb <zukigottlieb at gmail.com <mailto:zukigottlieb at gmail.com> > wrote: 

I don't have an answer, but Breuer (pg 315) has this פסוק as an exception in two ways:

1. One of two places a פזר is a תמורה for an עולה ויורד.

2. The only place where an עולה ויורד splits a מלך rather than a whole פסוק.

Zuki

-- 

Yitzchak M. Gottlieb

zukigottlieb at gmail.com <mailto:zukigottlieb at gmail.com> 

On Nov 21, 2023, at 03:50, galsaba--- via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> > wrote:

I have a question regarding the following pasuk:

"לְדָוִ֡ד

 אֵ֘לֶ֤יךָ יְדוָ֨ד ׀ אֶקְרָ֗א   צוּרִי֮ אַֽל־תֶּחֱרַ֪שׁ מִ֫מֶּ֥נִּי 

 פֶּן־תֶּֽחֱשֶׁ֥ה מִמֶּ֑נִּי    וְ֝נִמְשַׁ֗לְתִּי עִם־י֥וֹרְדֵי בֽוֹר׃" (תהילים כח:א)

I put the spaces as they appear in Tehilim The edition on Mosad HaRav Kuk.

It is clear that there is a long pause after "LeDavid". The reason is the ta'am Pazer. Ta'am pazer when it "rules" just its own word, ie, there is no any word before it, in this case this trope is not a "shalish" (the weakest level), but it is the "temura" ("replacement") of the Etnach.

In this case, how it is possible that Etnach (its "temura") will appear before the trop Ole VeYored?

How it is possible to have two Etnach (one is a temura) in the same pasuk?

Aharon Gal

201-414-7190

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:11:20 AM EDT, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> > wrote: 

This isn’t really a dikduk question. Without nikkud, the morphology is not fully specified. It is a compositional question. Which meaning of the word gives an idiomatically correct sentence. The answer to this, I think, relies as much on the use of the word מפי as the form of למדן. The broader context could also help. In other words, you could know every page of a reference grammar inside and out, and still not be able to answer this question.

Jeremy 

On Sep 13, 2022, at 10:37 AM, micha--- via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> > wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Zvi Lampel <zvilampel at gmail.com <mailto:zvilampel at gmail.com> >
Date: Sep 13, 2022, 9:49 AM -0400
To: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org <mailto:micha at aishdas.org> >
Subject: A dikduk question

Hi, Micha. 

Could you forward this question to those who would have an answer? 

In this sentence,

וכולן למדן משה רבינו ע''ה מפי הגבורה

does למדן mean ''he learned them''' or ''he taught them'''? (Nikud is not given.)

Thanks,

Zvi Lampel 

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