[Mesorah] "Teven" at the end of a pasuk

[galsaba at aol.com]

I need to be more careful with my spelling.I meant to say "Nice" (not Nine)
and in my previous post I meant to say "cite" and not "cute"...
(Where can I find a spell checker that can correct to words to the words I mean to write...)
Aaron201-414-7190

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Gal via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>; mesorah at aishdas.org <mesorah at aishdas.org>
Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2021 6:36 am
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] "Teven" at the end of a pasuk

Nine!
The main reason for my first question, it was as introduction to the second one. The rule of when a word will get the form of Tzurath Hefsek rather than Tzurat Hemshech, depends on three factors:1. The trop.2. The meaning in the sentence. For example, the same mafslk, Zakef Katon, depends on the meaning (mashmauth) can be stronger or weaker. This may effect the Tzurat Hefsek3. The structure of the word. "Tavnit". Words in the Tavnit of TAL tends to get Tzurat Mafsik much easer than words like "GESHEM" (segol segol)4. The word itsef. TEVEN, MELECH, GESHEM - all the same Tavnith, but one tends to get more Tzurar Nikud Mafsik than the other.
All, all these words, all the Tavniyot and rules can be found in the book of Yisrael Ben David - Tzurot Nikud Hemshech and Hefsek Ba'Ivrith Shebamikra.

Aaron201-414-7190

-----Original Message-----
From: Akiva Miller via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: mesorah at aishdas.org
Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2021 6:22 am
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] "Teven" at the end of a pasuk

As it was explained to me, geshem/gashem is NOT about differences in the pronunciation rules. Rather, they are different views about where the phrase ends. This is explained at length, with many sources and notes, at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4903
Some feel that that "Mashiv haruach umorid hagashem" is a sentence on its own, and has a pause after it, and that's why "gashem" has the kamatz. The opposing view is that this is not an independent sentence, but is just the first phrase in a long list of phrases, and therefore, the segol appears in "geshem" exactly the same way as it appears three words later in "chesed".
I concede that the above theory has problems. If "Mashiv haruach umorid hagashem" is just the first phrase in a long list of phrases, then perhaps the same should apply to "Morid hatal", and "tal" would have a patach instead of a kamatz. But I don't think I've ever seen that. [It has a patach in Barech Alenu, because that is unquestionably in the middle of a phrase.] According to footnote 15 in the article cited above, Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky justifies the kamatz in "morid hatal" by explaining that it is NOT the first phrase of "Mechalkel Chaim B'chesed", but is rather the final phrase of "Atah Gibor".
When I am the shliach tzibur, I am careful to EITHER say "hagAshem" and have a long pause afterward, OR say "hagEshem" with a pause no longer than the one after "b'chesed". I have heard other people make the same sort of quick pause, but this distinction seems to go over the heads of most.

According to what I have written, if a siddur publisher chooses to put a segol in "geshem", then they should follow it with a comma (like after "b'chesed"), and *not* with a period. But alas, I have not seen that anywhere. And even if they did, I wonder if anyone would notice.
Akiva Miller


On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:19 AM Aaron Gal via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

Why Ashkenazim cute "Morid HaGashem", and the Sephardim - Morid HaGeshem.
May be more difficult:  Nosach Sefard -why:Vethen Tal U'Matar, ("Tal" - Patach)butMorid HaTol ("Tol" - Kamatz) but Morid HaGeshem (Segol, and not Kamatz)

Aaron201-414-7190

-----Original Message-----
From: Akiva Miller via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: mesorah at aishdas.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2021 10:02 pm
Subject: [Mesorah] "Teven" at the end of a pasuk

I was surprised to find that the word "teven" occurs at the end of several pesukim (Shmos 5:7, 5:10, 5:12, 5:13) *without* changing its pronunciation to "taven".
I was *going* to ask this learned chevra if there might be other such words which remain segol-segol even at the end of a pasuk, but I was surprised at how quickly the example of "melech" came to my mind. Bereshis 14:17 and 49:20, Esther 1:5 and 7:4, are just a few examples of "melech" at the end of a pasuk. Looking through my concordance, I was unable to find any cases where it changed to "malech".
So I'm not going to ask why "teven" and "melech" are exceptions to the rule. Rather, I am learning the lesson that Rabbi Mandel has told us so many times: There are no iron-clad rules, only *general* rules, which were born to have exceptions. And as such, the exceptions should not be so surprising. The same way that the sh'va of "shtayim" ("two") is a sh'va nach despite being on the first letter, so too do the segols of "melech" remain so despite being in the last word.
Why? Because that's how languages work, that's why.
To reiterate: I am not asking any questions here. I'm simply bringing it to the attention of the chevra in case anyone else didn't notice it, or wants to comment.
Good Shabbos to allAkiva Miller_______________________________________________
Mesorah mailing list
Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
_______________________________________________
Mesorah mailing list
Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org

_______________________________________________
Mesorah mailing list
Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
_______________________________________________
Mesorah mailing list
Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20211224/505f4aba/attachment-0005.htm>