[Mesorah] Fwd: [Avodah] Chad Gadya

[Danny Levy]

May I take this opportunity to ask another question about Aramaic dikduk?
In Kaddish, ul'olmei olmaya and da'amiran b'olma, do they have kamatz gadol
and therefore shva na, or kamatz katan and therefore shva nach, or is
Aramaic dikduk different from Hebrew and therefore "therefore" is incorrect?

Danny Levy

‫בתאריך יום ד׳, 10 באפר׳ 2019 ב-16:02 מאת ‪Mandel, Seth via Mesorah‬‏ <‪
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org‬‏>:‬

> The rules in Aramaic are the same, although the form of the numerals are
> different.  To be consistent, one should be saying t'loth ‘asre middayya
> and tarte ‘esre kokhvayya.
>
> But the question is incorrect in two points:
>
> 1) middayya and kokhvayya and dibbrayya are all MASCULINE in Aramaic. The
> singular is, like with all Aramaic masculine nouns, has the definite form
> midda, kokhva, dibb'ra; the final -a is the definite article.
>
> Even in Hebrew, the old singular of dibb'rot is NOT dibb'rah, but dibber.
> That word is masculine, but with the -ot plural, which is quite common in
> Hebrew for masculine nouns.  Maqom-m'qomot.
>
> Even when the word has an -ot ending in Hebrew, the Aramiac often has the
> -ayya (maculine) plural. In Hebrew we have a hag called Shavu‘ot.  In
> Aramaic, it is Shavu‘ayya, not *shavu‘ata.
>
> 2) The questioner should have first asked why are we counting some things
> in Aramaic and some in Hebrew? Why not 'arba immahata and t'lata avahata?
>
> The answer is that all the songs after the Haggodo were medieval
> compositions, most originally in German.  Old haggodos still have "nun
> boy,"  even if they have the Hebrew "Qel b'neh." To make it sound more
> authentic, the songs were rewritten in a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic, but
> the knowledge of Aramaic in medieval Ashk'naz was near nill. They had long
> ago abandoned reading the Targum on Shabbos in shul, and all of the
> medieval compositions from Ashk'naz in Aramaic have basic, sometimes toxic
> errors. No one even really knew the Aramaic parts of Daniyyel and Ezra.
> The song "Qoh Ribbon" is mostly based on Daniyyel, but punctuated in the
> siddur with incorrect signs: hayvat boro means "the animals of the wild,"
> and that is the way it is in Daniyyel.  But people sing "hevat b'ra," which
> means "the animals of the Son."
>
> Chad gaya is sung "di-zabbenn abba," which would meant "that father sold,"
> rather than di-z'van," which means "bought."
>
> Why did they bother using Aramaic at all, if they didn't know Aramaic?
> Probably because it sounded more "authentic." Just like nowadays, Jews
> studied G'moro.  Whether or not they understood Aramaic. Most or all of the
> children did not, but they learned G'moro like they had learned Chumash:
> most or all did not know Hebrew, but the rebbe would have them read a
> couple of words, translate them, and had the kids learn the translation
> with the Hebrew.  When they started reading G'moro, they already knew a lot
> of Hebrew, and so understood the G'moro based on Rashi.
>
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> Rabbinic Coordinator
> The Orthodox Union
>
> Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mandels at ou.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of Micha
> Berger via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2019 2:32 AM
> *To:* mesorah at aishdas.org
> *Cc:* Micha Berger
> *Subject:* [Mesorah] Fwd: [Avodah] Chad Gadya
>
> Someone here is more likely to know the answer.
>
> -micha
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Aryeh Frimer via Avodah <
> avodah at lists.aishdas.org> -----
> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 10:38:43 +0000
> From: Aryeh Frimer via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: [Avodah] Chad Gadya
> To: <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> CC: Aryeh Frimer <Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il>
> Reply-To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
>
> In Chad Gadya, we say Shelosha Avot and Arba (not Arba'a) Imahot because
> Avot is male and Imahot is female. Yet the text reads Asara Dibraya and
> shlosha Asar Midaya even though Dibra/Dibrot and Mida/Midot are female.
> Has any one seen a discussion related to this Dikduk Problem? Are the
> rules in Aramaic different?
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