[Mesorah] mishneh-kesef

Wed Dec 27 12:21:21 PST 2017

Your second explanation is closer to the truth, but it is not accurate.  The first word loses its stress.  Where the secondary stress reappears is by no means certain or subject to hard and fast rules; it is a matter of the Masorah, which is why Ben Asher and Ben Naftali argue about so many ge‘ayot.  And it appears in all sorts of unexpected places.  Very often on a sh'wa.  Unfortunately, the page I sent you does not have the last pasuk of T'hilla l'David, or you would see a ge‘aya on the sh'wa of y'dabber-pi.  In the page I sent, you can see one in the preceding kapital, 3 lines before the bottom: miyyad b'ne-nekhar, with a ge‘aya next to the sh'wa.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mandels at ou.org

________________________________
From: Danny Levy <danestlev at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 2:38 PM
To: Mandel, Seth; mesorah at lists.aishdas.org; Mesorah List
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef

R' Seth,

In your example

עֵינֵי-כֹל אֵלֶיךָ יְשַׂבֵּרוּ, וְאַתָּה נוֹתֵן-לָהֶם אֶת-אָכְלָם בְּעִתּוֹ.

the g'aya on EInei-CHOL is understandable as a sort of Nasog Achor, but why is it NOtein-laHEM rather than noTEIN-laHEM?  Not only do the words not have adjacent stressed syllables, but long closed syllables such as TEIN almost invariably have a ta'am or at least a g'aya.

There was a similar strange g'aya on words joined by a maqaf in last week's parsha: vinYAmin-aKHIV (Gen 45:14) rather than vinyaMIN-aKHIV (although MIN is not a long closed syllable).

Might the explanation be that when two words are joined by a maqaf, the first one loses its stress as you wrote, and then it is able to receive a g'aya if the new large word has a suitable syllable (in these cases a g'aya qala on the open syllable) even if the result is totally foreign to the word when not joined by a maqaf?

Danny Levy

2017-12-27 0:43 GMT+02:00 Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>:

It still seems to me that the Rambam's description of what Chazal mean is the most authenic, and it is certainly the oldest.

As all the nos'ei kelim noted, the Ra'avd's comment on the Rambam, although equally old, can teach us nothing. The Ra'avad made his comment on the background of his pronunciation.  Although it is easy for a linguist to see what the Ra'avad's pronunciation of Hebrew must have been like, it is nothing like any of the pronunciations we have today.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>

________________________________
From: elazar teitz <emteitz at gmail.com<mailto:emteitz at gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 10:24 PM
To: Mandel, Seth; Micha Berger; mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef

This is what the מנחת שי has to say about בכל-לבבך:

כשאמרו  רז"ל שצריך לחתן ריוח בין הדבקים לא אמרו להפסיק שלא לתת מקף בין שני הלמדין כאשר הוא, שאם יקרא אותו בלי מקף יהיה נקוד בחולם, וזה לא אמרו רז"ל להחליף התנועות אשר נתנו    למשה מסיני *) אלא אף על פי שיקראם במקף יתן ריוח והבדל ביניהם שידמה כי שני למדין קרא (מכלול דף צ"ו וכן כל כיוצא בזה

The footnote reads:

עיין בספר הכוזרי מאמר ג סימן ל ובספר מסורת המסורה למדקדק הגדול ר' אלי' בחור וגם מטפחת ספרים להגאון מו"ה יעב"ץ ד"ה א"פ

EMT

On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 11:56 PM, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>> wrote:

The G'moro seems to be pretty clear when it says "revach bein had'vekim."  The Rambam brings it the same way:

ב,ט  כיצד מדקדק,ייזהר שלא ירפה החזק ולא יחזק הרפה ולא יניד הנח ולא יניח הנד.  לפיכך צריך ליתן ריוח בין כל שתי אותות הדומות שאחת מהן סוף תיבה והאחרת תחילת תיבה הסמוכה לה, כגון "בכל לבבך" קורא "בכל" ושוהה וחוזר וקורא "לבבך", וכן "ואבדתם מהרה", "הכנף פתיל".
If you need something between the d'veqim, letters that "stick" together, one cannot pronounce them as one doubled letter.

But this is a rule special for Q'S, apparently, derived from the requirement of "limmud tam," and so it may not necessarily apply to anything else.  The R'DaQ claims that it is not only QS, but anything, and QS was just a place to be more careful.  But the Masorah, in discussing two identical letters one after another in the word, implies that in some cases, one is "gol'lam yachad."

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel

________________________________
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org<mailto:micha at aishdas.org>>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Mandel, Seth
Cc: Michael Poppers; mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef

On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 03:44:51PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah wrote:
: When words are connected with a maqqaf, the first word loses its stress
: and its vowel may b changed, because it is now considered part of a
: larger word. In some cases, there is a secondary stress on the first word;
: in others there is not.

Tangent, but very much halakhah lemaaseh:

And in Shema, how many /l/ sounds do you make in "al-levavekha"?
Do you say both lameds with a pause mid-teivah (I prefer that to
modifying the meaning of the word "word"), or pronounce it like
a lamed-degushah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
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