[Mesorah] Yid-mu vs Yi-demu

Sun Feb 1 10:39:29 PST 2015

I would just like to take up the mantle of the token Ashkenazi speaker
here.  While it is true that in the Tiberian nikkud, the dagesh does play
an important role and distinguishes between the two forms, Ashkenazi
pronunciation also distinguishes between LNN and LWN by the patach vs.
kametz.  But even if the Ashkenazi pronunciation did not distinguish
between the two forms, I think it would be unjustified to try to "correct"
the Ashkenazi pronunciation because it doesn't fit the Tiberian nikkud.
Same goes for not geminating the dalet in "yidmu".  (Although if anyone has
evidence of geminating letters in pre-modern Ashkenazi Hebrew, I'd be very
interested in hearing about it.)

Along the same vein, I agree that the Shulchan Aruch's psak to lengthen the
dalet in Shma is clearly only intended for those who spirantize the dalet,
and so cannot apply to Ashkenazim.  In general, it has been my experience
that many native Ashkenazi or western Sephardic speakers who try to emulate
geminates, different pronunciations of reish, and the guttural ayin end up
overcorrecting and the resulting pronunciation sounds forced and
artificial.  I think this is another thing to keep in mind when trying to
guide speakers to an appropriate pronunciation of Hebrew.

I would welcome any discussion this may raise.

Kol tuv,

Ben

On 1 February 2015 at 12:55, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> I sympathize with R. Dubin's desire to have things done right.  But I look
> at it from the point of view of the Masorah, not what goes on where I daven
> (since there are so many mistakes, vowels, trop, pauses many of which can
> change the meaning, that I have given up; when I read, I try to get
> everything right, but do not always succeed).  And the dagesh chazaq is so
> very important in the Masorah.
> This past week's parsha is chock full of examples where the dagesh is
> crucially important. Besides יִדְּמוּ כָּאָבֶן, we have וַיָּמֹדּוּ
> בָעֹמֶר, and also אֶת-תְּלֻנֹּתֵיכֶם אֲשֶׁר-אַתֶּם מַלִּינִם עָלָיו.
> The form וַיָּמֹדּוּ is the alternate form for a geminate root.  Just as
> יִדְּמוּ is from dmm, וַיָּמֹדּוּ is from mdd.  But, as I mentioned
> previously, Hebrew allows two forms, as long as the gemination (doubling)
> is present.  Indeed, R. Dubin, Ashk'nazim who lein do not pronounce the
> gemination, but it is there.
> (BTW, it is ironic that I hear so many Ashk'nazim pronouncing a geminate
> dale't, not in יִדְּמוּ, but in the first pasuk of Q'riash Sh'ma‘: because
> the SA mentions prolonging the dale't of אֶחָד, they think it means
> pronounce it as if it were written /echchadddduh/.  It is not correct
> there; the SA means prolonging the soft dale't, but in any event it is a
> תוכחה גלויה to those who claim that Ashk'nazim "cannot" pronounce doubling.)
> The case of מַלִּינִם is not quite the same.  According to most, the root
> is not l-n-n, but rather there are two forms from the root l-u-n, one
> without doubling that is used in the meaning "to spend the night, to sleep
> over," and the other in the meaning "to complain."  In the latter meaning,
> gemination is required: it appears here in the lame'd, but appears in the
> nu'n in the noun תְּלֻנֹּתֵיכֶם.  There is another root like that, where
> gemination distinguishes between two meanings: the root n-u-ch, where the
> form without gemination means "to rest" in the Qal and the metaphoric "to
> lay, put<' whereas the form with gemination means "to place, put down"
> physically.  They are carefully distinguished in the T'NaKh.  For example,
> לְהָנִיחַ בְּרָכָה in Y'chezqel 44:30 (obviously, one cannot physically put
> a b'rakha anywhere), versus יִפְשְׁטוּ אֶת-בִּגְדֵיהֶם... וְהִנִּיחוּ
> אוֹתָם op. cit. 44:18.
>
>
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Mesorah [mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org] on behalf of Mandel,
> Seth via Mesorah [mesorah at lists.aishdas.org]
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 9:51 AM
> To: 'Gershon'; Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon
> Cc: mesora at aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Yid-mu vs Yi-demu
>
> Not unless you correct people for pronouncing ‘atta without the ‘ayin.
> Since the sh'wa in English is not phonemic, English speakers do not care
> about its pronunciation (see all the people who say brokho, as it is in
> Yiddish, or brakha, even though everyone knows it should be b'rokho.  And
> so it falls into the category of the Beishanim in the g'moro.  We allow
> such people to daven in their own kehilla.
> My rebbe, RYBS, was careful about all the sh'was and the accents on the
> words, even though he could not pronounce the ‘ayins.  But he noted that
> that was because he had been trained that way by his father, and that other
> than Briskers, most Jews in Europe were sloppy about where the accent goes
> on a word and sh'was.  And אני הקטן agree with what he said: people should
> be encouraged to pronounce things correctly, but should not be publicly
> embarrassed for not doing so.
> If someone says Shiras haYam and says yidmu, you should try to educate
> them afterwards, IMHO, because they are just doing what most Ashk'nazim do,
> whether in America or EY.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gershon [mailto:gershon.dubin at juno.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 9:17 AM
> To: Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon
> Cc: Mandel, Seth; mesora at aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Yid-mu vs Yi-demu
>
> Let's agree that the word in question means silence rather than
> similarity. If someone reads yidmu, no pronunciation of either the dagesh
> OR shva na, clearly then indicating similarity, should he be corrected as
> having made a mistake that changed the meaning?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 30, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jrs3 at nyu.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, R. Mandel's point, I believe, is that if is only by looking at
> > the dagesh that you can understand thd difference. The shva doesn't
> > clarify the meaning.
> >
> > On Jan 29, 2015, at 8:15 PM, Gershon via Mesorah
> > <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> >
> >> But one does not pronounce dagesh/no dagesh (well I don't) , one
> >> pronounces na/nach
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jan 29, 2015, at 6:06 PM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> the real difference is in the dagesh.  With a dagesh, it is from the
> root d-m-m, meaning to be silent (and, of course, the shwa is na').
> Without the dagesh, it is from the root d-m-h, meaning to be similar (and
> the sh'wa is silent).
> >>> Cherchez la dagesh, which is in place of doubling.
> >>>
> >>> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: Mesorah [mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org] on behalf of
> >>> Gershon via Mesorah [mesorah at lists.aishdas.org]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 4:50 PM
> >>> To: mesora at aishdas.org
> >>> Subject: [Mesorah] Yid-mu vs Yi-demu
> >>>
> >>> Can our learned membership opine on the Sheva in this word in the
> shiras hayam having a different meaning as na or nach?
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
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