[Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?

[R Davidovich]

While sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and trop might not have the kind
of meaning we imagine it should have, I would recommend a sefer by an old
acquaintance of mine at Ner Israel, Naftali Gettinger, a real illui and
major Talmid Chacham, on hundreds of examples of how trop is seen to
influence, or be influenced by, Halacha and hashkafa.  It's called
"Vayavinu BaMikra".  It is a must-own for those who care about this list.

RD


On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:

> I hate casting cold water on things that I consider important, and I
> approve of the questions being asked.  However, my quest for the truth
> requires me to address the (Heisenberg) Trop Uncertainty Principle, which
> has nothing to do with Heisenberg, but is one of the basic facts of trop.
> To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and subdivisions.
>  The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim, Sh'niym, and
> Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none of these terms exist
> in the early sources), is quite useful for most p'suqim and clauses.  But
> it fails when used for a list.  Unless a list has subcategories, the trop
> used for the words is arbitrary in the sense that it follows rules of
> assigning trop if the meaning shows no major and minor elements.
> A classic example is Ex. 28:4, where the Torah is discussing the Bigdei
> K'hunnah.  7 b'gadim are listed.  In modern English, we might separate all
> with commas or perhaps semicolons, or we could make a numbered list, or use
> bullets or letters.  None of those options are used in trop.
> So trop is assigned to all 7 b'gadim.  I would argue that the trop does
> not indicate that any of the b'gadim are more especially connected with the
> ones that the trop connects them with.  But rather the trop divides any
> lists into groups of one or two words and uses "standard" trop to string
> them all together.
> This is used many times in the Torah, and I personally would not make much
> out of it.
> And so, although I applaud R. Akiva for observing and asking, I believe
> this is just a list, with no element being thematically more connected to
> another.  A noun with 3 adjectives; 3 d'rashot by Chazal.
> Of course, one can always make a d'rash.  But it is important to
> distinguish between an explanation that is mandated by the trop versus one
> that the trop allows but does not require.
>
> Seth Mandel
>
> ________________________________________
> From: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org [mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org]
> on behalf of Kenneth Miller [kennethgmiller at juno.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 2:14 PM
> To: mesorah at aishdas.org
> Subject: [Mesorah]  Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?
>
> Devarim 26:5, "Vayhi sham l'goy gadol atzum v'rav"
>
> What's the best way to parse the "gadol"? Is it closer to goy or to atzum?
> I do see "goy gadol" with mercha-tipcha, which I usually understand to be a
> joined phrase, but it's always good to check.
>
> Here's why I ask: The Hagada has separate paragraphs for perushim on
> "goy", "atzum", and "rav", but not for "gadol". In my experience, it is
> lumped together with "atzum", but that's not necessarily so.
>
> "An Exalted Evening" (by Rabbi Menachem Genack, based on the teachings of
> RYB Soloveitchik) pg 67 fills three whole paragraphs, explicitly on the
> phrase "goy gadol". It's very nice, and I recommend it to others, but
> before I say it over at my Seder, I wanted to double-check how it holds up
> to the trop.
>
> Thanks!
> Akiva Miller
> ____________________________________________________________
> Fast-Growing Industry
> A New Player In The Booming Bottled Water Market.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/533c53bb1bc6653ba5f92st04vuc
> _______________________________________________
> Mesorah mailing list
> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
> _______________________________________________
> Mesorah mailing list
> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140407/3936c912/attachment-0006.htm>