[Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum? Also VeAnita veAmarta

[Michael Poppers]

Thanks, RDBloom (or, as RDBannett might say, "RDB the younger") -- good
point re "rav v'atzum"!  I await someone quibbling with it not being
exactly the same as "atzum varav."

RDBtY also brings up a good point re "v'anisa v'amarta" (hereafter "AvA"),
but there's a history of discussion in Avodah, if not Mesorah, re the
implications for *nusach hat'fila*.  IIRC, that discussion was relatively
heated (a *machloqes l'sheim Shamayim* :)) re the *pisuq* in these two
locations:
-- the stanza prior to the pre-Shma threefold-"Qadosh"; and
-- the phrase prior to "H' Yimloch" in Ma'ariv.
I don't want to place words into R'Micha's mouth, but I recall that he and
I were on opposite sides of the discussion then (and I took the "keep
AvAtogether" side ;-)).

Gut Voch/Shavu'a Tov and all the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Dov Bloom <dovbbb at gmail.com> wrote:

> The pair of adjectives 'rav' 'atzum' appears frequently together in
> tenach.
> Often in plural eg Goyim rabim vatzumin. Probably should be understood as
> a semantic  unit like 'tov ve yafe' or  lehavdil 'big and tough' 'rough and
> ready'.
> Shmot 1:9 am bnei yisrael rav veatzum
> Yoel 2:2 am rav veatzum
> Dvarim 7:1 goyim rabim vatzumin.
> Also dvarimb 9:1 11:23
> Dvarim 9:14 zecharia 8:22
> dvarim 4:38
> See also bemidbar 32:1 mikneh rav ... atzum discussed in Perlman Dapei
> chug leTaamei hamikra v 2 # 48
> I am sure that this fact  affected the taamin which group rav + atzum
> together and the tipecha-mafsik on gadol as pointed out by MP.
>
> A similar literal misunderstsnding of a pair of words in the same parasha.
> A pair that should be understood as one semantic unit and not two. 'veanita
> vamarta' - not two verbs 'answer and say' (because there is no one to
> answer there). It means ' lift up your voice and say ' or in better
> English with one verb  "Proclaim".
> see mechilta derashbi on this pasuk, mentioned in a wonderful tshuva of R
> Yechiel Yaacov Weinberg in Sridei Eish
>  On Apr 6, 2014 9:43 AM, "Michael Poppers" <michaelpoppers at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> One might consider the association of "gadol" with "goy" stronger than
>> that of "atzum" or "rav" with "goy" just because there's a *tipcha* on
>> "gadol" [the first of the three adjectives] -- in listing a series of three
>> adjectives, with the strongest *mafsiq* of the phrase (noun and its
>> adjectives) on the third adjective, the Torah could have graced the second
>> [and third] rather than the first [and third] with *mafsiqim*, e.g. Deu
>> 10 <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/c/ct/c0510.htm>:17.
>>
>> Gut Voch/Shavu'a Tov and all the best from
>> *Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Kenneth Miller <kennethgmiller at juno.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Devarim 26:5, "Vayhi sham l'goy gadol atzum v'rav"
>>>
>>> What's the best way to parse the "gadol"? Is it closer to goy or to
>>> atzum? I do see "goy gadol" with mercha-tipcha, which I usually understand
>>> to be a joined phrase, but it's always good to check.
>>>
>>> Here's why I ask: The Hagada has separate paragraphs for perushim on
>>> "goy", "atzum", and "rav", but not for "gadol". In my experience, it is
>>> lumped together with "atzum", but that's not necessarily so.
>>>
>>> "An Exalted Evening" (by Rabbi Menachem Genack, based on the teachings
>>> of RYB Soloveitchik) pg 67 fills three whole paragraphs, explicitly on the
>>> phrase "goy gadol". It's very nice, and I recommend it to others, but
>>> before I say it over at my Seder, I wanted to double-check how it holds up
>>> to the trop.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Akiva Miller
>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
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