[Mesorah] uncertain list division

[Dov Bloom]

There _is_  a standard list division protocol. From reading RSM' s post one
probably comes away with the opposite impression, tho.
The standard is :
List of 3- 2:1
List of 4 - 2:2
List of 5 - 3 (2:1) : 2
Extrapolate further. ( 6 3:3) (7 4:3)
RSM is correct in hinting that actual list may vary from the standard
protocol  -- because of  closeness of usage in word pairs, or word
triplets; occurances of vav hahibur in lists; length of various members of
the list etc.

Word pair example which trumps the protocol -- see my as yet blocked post
on " gadol atzum varav " earlier in this thread which in a nutshell
explains that atzum varav is a common pair apearing numerous times in
tanach so they go together. Ending up with "gadol (mafsik) atzum varav"
which is 1:2 and not the standard 2:1 which you would get according to the
above protocol.
 On Apr 8, 2014 3:09 PM, "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org> wrote:

> Which is the larger issue that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to allude to.
>  Trop serves several functions, primarily parsing and cantillation.  Since
> everything requires trop, sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide
> matters.  Such as in most lists.
> People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white ideas, black
> and white clothes, and black and white cookies.  I have been saying for
> years something I learned from RYBS but only realized how all-encompassing
> it was years later: in applying Torah to the human world, usually nothing
> is black and white, but shades of grey.  It requires someone of real
> stature, something most of us, including rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze
> through the nuances and decide what is the best way, understanding that in
> most cases there is no perfect solution.  Since the rules of Hebrew,
> including trop, are part of Torah, how could anyone think that they do not
> follow the scheme of how the Torah operates?
> The corollary here is that one may NOT say that in any given pasuq the
> trop is DEFINITELY parsing or cantillation.  However, if one first takes
> the pasuq and creates a trop based on his understanding, and then compares
> it to the actual trop, it is easier to see in which cases the trop is
> pointing to a different parsing that one originally thought.
> There is no question that the trop many times through its parsing points
> to a different meaning than a reading in plain Hebrew would imply.  All I
> was trying to point out was that there is another function of trop that
> does not indicate parsing by meaning.
> One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is the normal use of trop in
> lists.  Since this non-parsing feature in lists is so common, I called it
> the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty Priciple, trying to utilize the physics-based
> terms, just as Micha did, in an apparently unsuccessful attempt at levity.
>
> Seth Mandel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha at aishdas.org]
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM
> To: Mandel, Seth
> Cc: mesorah at aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?
>
> On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:
> : To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and
> subdivisions.  The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim, Sh'niym,
> and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none of these terms
> exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most p'suqim and clauses.
>  But it fails when used for a list.  Unless a list has subcategories, the
> trop used for the words is arbitrary in the sense that it follows rules of
> assigning trop if the meaning shows no major and minor elements.
>
> I think it's simply that trop is after all cantillation. And therefore
> serves functions other than aiding in the parsing of sentences.
>
> It's not uncertainty, it's hidden variables. (My apologies to those who
> don't get the physics reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to be funny.)
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             How wonderful it is that
> micha at aishdas.org        nobody need wait a single moment
> http://www.aishdas.org   before starting to improve the world.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Anne Frank Hy"d
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