<p dir="ltr">There _is_ a standard list division protocol. From reading RSM' s post one probably comes away with the opposite impression, tho.<br>
The standard is :<br>
List of 3- 2:1<br>
List of 4 - 2:2<br>
List of 5 - 3 (2:1) : 2<br>
Extrapolate further. ( 6 3:3) (7 4:3)<br>
RSM is correct in hinting that actual list may vary from the standard protocol -- because of closeness of usage in word pairs, or word triplets; occurances of vav hahibur in lists; length of various members of the list etc. </p>
<p dir="ltr">Word pair example which trumps the protocol -- see my as yet blocked post on " gadol atzum varav " earlier in this thread which in a nutshell explains that atzum varav is a common pair apearing numerous times in tanach so they go together. Ending up with "gadol (mafsik) atzum varav" which is 1:2 and not the standard 2:1 which you would get according to the above protocol. <br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Apr 8, 2014 3:09 PM, "Mandel, Seth" <<a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org">mandels@ou.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Which is the larger issue that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to allude to. Trop serves several functions, primarily parsing and cantillation. Since everything requires trop, sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide matters. Such as in most lists.<br>
People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white ideas, black and white clothes, and black and white cookies. I have been saying for years something I learned from RYBS but only realized how all-encompassing it was years later: in applying Torah to the human world, usually nothing is black and white, but shades of grey. It requires someone of real stature, something most of us, including rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze through the nuances and decide what is the best way, understanding that in most cases there is no perfect solution. Since the rules of Hebrew, including trop, are part of Torah, how could anyone think that they do not follow the scheme of how the Torah operates?<br>
The corollary here is that one may NOT say that in any given pasuq the trop is DEFINITELY parsing or cantillation. However, if one first takes the pasuq and creates a trop based on his understanding, and then compares it to the actual trop, it is easier to see in which cases the trop is pointing to a different parsing that one originally thought.<br>
There is no question that the trop many times through its parsing points to a different meaning than a reading in plain Hebrew would imply. All I was trying to point out was that there is another function of trop that does not indicate parsing by meaning.<br>
One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is the normal use of trop in lists. Since this non-parsing feature in lists is so common, I called it the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty Priciple, trying to utilize the physics-based terms, just as Micha did, in an apparently unsuccessful attempt at levity.<br>
<br>
Seth Mandel<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Micha Berger [mailto:<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>]<br>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM<br>
To: Mandel, Seth<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org">mesorah@aishdas.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:<br>
: To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and subdivisions. The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim, Sh'niym, and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none of these terms exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most p'suqim and clauses. But it fails when used for a list. Unless a list has subcategories, the trop used for the words is arbitrary in the sense that it follows rules of assigning trop if the meaning shows no major and minor elements.<br>
<br>
I think it's simply that trop is after all cantillation. And therefore serves functions other than aiding in the parsing of sentences.<br>
<br>
It's not uncertainty, it's hidden variables. (My apologies to those who don't get the physics reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to be funny.)<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
--<br>
Micha Berger How wonderful it is that<br>
<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a> nobody need wait a single moment<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org" target="_blank">http://www.aishdas.org</a> before starting to improve the world.<br>
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