[Mesorah] Pausal form In Mishnah

[Mandel, Seth]

But grammar is descriptive, so let's talk about facts. All vocalized Ashk'naz mss i have seen have haggefen, so there is no question that that is original nusach Ashk'naz. The old S'faradi mss have it, too. Those are facts, and do not confuse me with theory. I imbibed too much to differentiate between "boruch nusach Ashk'naz" and "orur nusach X."

Rabbi Seth Mandel
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 8, 2012, at 7:17 PM, "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> Rabbi Seth Mandel
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
>> 
>> R. Elozor Meir's point has some truth to it.  We call these forms "pausal" because they always occur with a silluq (sof pasuq) or etnahto.  But they occur elsewhere as well.  For instance, the forms could be also called "list forms" or "parallel phrase/clause forms," because they occur regularly there, e.g. Ex 16:23. 
> These parallel clause forms clearly exist in L'shon Chazal, based on all the ancient  vocalized mishnayos. But that does not necessarily mean that every word at the end of a Mishnah has a "pausal" form; usually they do not. 
> The grammar of L'shon Chazal is still a subject of research. But grammar is 
>> 
>> 
>> Rabbi Seth Mandel
>> Rabbinic Coordinator
>> The Orthodox Union
>> 11 Broadway, New York, NY  10004
>> 
>> Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mandels at ou.org
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org [mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org] on behalf of Elazar M. Teitz [remt at juno.com]
>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 3:26 PM
>> To: jeremy.simon at nyu.edu
>> Cc: mesorah at aishdas.org; rabbi.rich.wolpoe at gmail.com
>> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Pausal form In Mishnah
>> 
>>    Is it clear that "yachloku" is a pausal form for Chazal?  In the printed Shas, it appears in the middle of a statement, in the Mishna Yevamos 38a.
>> 
>> EMT
>> 
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.simon at nyu.edu>
>> To: rabbi.rich.wolpoe at gmail.com
>> Cc: Mesorah List <mesorah at aishdas.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Pausal form In Mishnah
>> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 20:33:52 -0500
>> 
>> I didn't say that we can learn nothing from the texts, although how we do so is beyond my competence. I just said that seeing a single letter in a printed text is not sufficient to base any conclusions on.
>> 
>> Jeremy
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:02 PM, R. Rich Wolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com<mailto:rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> This may be true, but unlike Tanach, the mesorah of the text of mishna is not well fixed. So you can't be m'dayek as easily in a given letter.
>> Jeremy�
>> 
>> So how can we ever know that l'shon Hazal did not have Pausals - EG gofen?
>> 
>> We can know leisheiv instead of losheves, but what else can we say for sure?
>> 
>> 
>> Shalom and Regards, RRW
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
>> Assistant Professor of Clinical Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
>> Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
>> Columbia University
>> 
>> 
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