[Mesorah] New Shtick

Sun Feb 26 13:07:07 PST 2012

I recall the Adass Yisroel shul in London, which was built in 1958, had
pairs of holes in the corners of the bench along the back of the bima in
order to hold the Sifrei Torah.  However, already when I was a young boy in
the early sixties, the Sifrei Torah were always held and the holes were
never used.  Even such a yekkish shul that zealously guarded their minhagim
evidently changed their minhag in this respect.

The maftir stood in the middle of the bima but I don't remember whether the
magbihim held the ST only at the sides of the bench.  In any case, it seems
very plausible that the minhag for the maftir to stand at the side
developed in some shuls after the above change, and/or in shuls where the
bench was not wide enough to allow the maftir to stand in the middle
without having his back to the ST.  Small shuls with small bimot were much
less common in the old days.

Danny Levy

2012/2/26 Poppers, Michael <MPoppers at kayescholer.com>

> > Ashk'naz <
> Germany? or are you referring to E.Europe?  Thanks.
> -- Michael Poppers via BB pager
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org>
> To: Poppers, Michael; 'danestlev at gmail.com' <danestlev at gmail.com>
> Cc: 'RabbiRichWolpoe at gmail.com' <RabbiRichWolpoe at gmail.com>; '
> mkopinsky at gmail.com' <mkopinsky at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sun Feb 26 14:44:14 2012
> Subject: RE: [Mesorah] New Shtick
>
> Of course it is.  But in the old Ashk'naz shuls it was not.  There was a
> special place designed for it to stand by itself on the end of the bench.
>  Perhaps someone sat next to it, but the design of the bench shows it was
> placed there.
>
> Rabbi Seth Mandel
> Rabbinic Coordinator
> The Orthodox Union
> 11 Broadway, New York, NY  10004
>
> Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mandels at ou.org
> ________________________________________
> From: Poppers, Michael [MPoppers at kayescholer.com]
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:36 PM
> To: Mandel, Seth; 'danestlev at gmail.com'
> Cc: 'RabbiRichWolpoe at gmail.com'; 'mkopinsky at gmail.com'
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] New Shtick
>
> > a place for the S'R at the side of the bench (it was not held) <
> R'Seth, in KAJ (and other shuls) it's held by the magbiah after the
> g'lilah.
>
> All the best from
> -- Michael Poppers via BB pager
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org
> >
> To: Danny Levy <danestlev at gmail.com>; Mesorah List <mesorah at aishdas.org>
> Sent: Sun Feb 26 14:28:26 2012
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] New Shtick
>
> There never was any question that originally the maftir stood in the
> middle of the bima.
> However, I pointed out that the bimas were constructed differently.  There
> was a bench all the way along the back, and a place for the S'R at the side
> of the bench (it was not held).  No one stood with his back to it.
> There were also benches for seating on all sides of the bima.  However,
> the seating was on "ground level," and all bimas  were a few steps up.  No
> one seated on the floor on any of the sides of the bima had their back to
> the S'T, even though they were all facing away from the S'T.
>
> Rabbi Seth Mandel
>
> ________________________________________
> From: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org [mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org]
> on behalf of Danny Levy [danestlev at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:44 PM
> To: Mesorah List
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] New Shtick
>
> Getting back to the question that started this thread, I see that R.
> Hofmeister specifically relates to it in his siddur.  He has a note that
> the Maftir should stand in the middle of the bima and not at the side, even
> if by doing so he has his back to the Sefer Torah.   So it seems that KAJ
> is keeping to the old Minhag Ashkenaz in this respect.
>
> Danny Levy
>
>
> 2012/2/26 Elazar M. Teitz <remt at juno.com<mailto:remt at juno.com>>
>    And when Nusach Ashk'naz made its debut, was it not a change from
> whatever its practitioners had used before? Why does that moment of its
> creation become the point at which further change is considered a
> defilement of minhag avoseinu?
>
>    Is there not a nusach Ashk'naz for kabbolas Shabbos?  Certainly it is
> not part of the "pristine" nusach Ashk'naz of the Rishonim.
>
> EMT
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com<mailto:
> rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com>>
> To: "Mesorah List" <mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] New Shtick
> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:30:58 +0000
>
>
>
> There are two related Issues re: Nusach and Minhag
>
> 1. Do we accept Nusach as is or do we roll it back to a more "authentic"
> earlier version?
>
>
> 2  Do we accept Minhag as is or do we roll it back to a more "authentic"
> earlier version?
>
> And it seems sometimes that some people may wish to roll back nusach and
> still be open to "new" Minhag and vice versa.
>
> --------------------
>
> It's become obvious to me since R Hofmeister published his siddur, that
> the Nusach Ashkenaz at EG KAJ is not the "pristine" Nusach Ashkenaz of the
> Rishonim.
>
> I can't be certain of the Minhagim, but R Binyamin Sh'lomoh Hamburger's
> works seem to best reveal the origins and nature of old Minhag Ashkenaz.
> Shalom and Regards, RRW
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