[Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu

[גודיק שלמה]

Good point.  I assumed the usage current in the Israeli army is correct:  i.e., segen (first lieutenant) or segen mishne (second lieutenant), but s'gan aluf (lieutenant colonel).  But I suppose that doesn't prove anything, does it?  

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From: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org [mailto:mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Elazar M. Teitz
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 10:19 PM
To: mesorah at aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu



     What is the basis for the assumption that "s'gan" is a mispronunciation?   Even Shoshan, in his concordance, lists the singular as "s'gan" in his heading.  (The word appears in Tanach only in the plural.)

EMT  

---------- Original Message ----------
From: âåãé÷ ùìîä <Shlomog at iteam.co.il>
To: <mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:17:31 +0200



A colleague of mine at work suggested that the word "p'sak" may be similar to the word "s'gan".  That is, just as "segen" is often mispronounced "s'gan"  when not in s'michut (not in the army, but just about everywhere else) because it is usually found in the s'michut form, similarly "p'sak" should really be pronounced "pesek" when not in the s'michut form.   If so, p'sak din would be "pesek shel din" and therefore in the plural and bismichut:  "piskei din".   
 
By the way, any ideas why "segen shel k'huna" is pronounced bismichut: "s'gan k'huna"?   Contrast "beged shel k'huna" which is pronounced in the smichut:  "beged k'huna".

________________________________

From: Simon Montagu [mailto:simon.montagu at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:35 PM
To: âåãé÷ ùìîä
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu


2009/7/13 âåãé÷ ùìîä <Shlomog at iteam.co.il>


	

	A recent broadcast on Israeli radio pointed out that the s'michut of words of binyan "ketel" differs from that of binyan k'tal. The first binyan is of Tanachic provenance, while the second is post-Tanachic and entered Hebrew under the influence of Aramaic.  

Not post-Tanachic:  yekar, ketav, kerav and she'ar are all biblical, and the last is used by Isaiah (She'ar Yashuv) and unlikely to be from Aramaic. See http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256   


	

	The first group includes words like "perek", "beged", "perach", and "peleg", and their s'michut in the plural is "pirkei", "bigdei", pirchei", and "palgei".  The second group contains words like "p'ras", "p'gam",  "p'rat", and "k'lal", and their 'smichut forms are "p'rasei", "p'gamei", p'ratei", and "k'lalei"  (even though 99% of Israelis wrongly say "pirtei p'ratim" instead of "p'ratei p'ratim").

	My question is: at first glance, the words "sh'tar" and "p'sak" also belong to the second group. But in the siddur we find the usage: "shitrei hovoteinu", not "sh'tarei".   Also I have never heard anybody say "p'sakei halacha" (as opposed to "piskei z'man" for intermissions).   Are these simply examples of misuse of the language?  Do S'faradim pronounce them "sh'tarei" and "p'sakei"?. 

 The Spanish and Portuguese in London and New York do say "shetarei hhovoteinu", though all other Sepharadi siddurim that I checked have "shitrei". 

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Ira L. Jacobson <laser at ieee.org> wrote:
A prime example is kitvei, which derives from ketav.  I don't think any authority finds fault with kitvei haqodesh.

I remember that R EE Wiesenberg zt"l once asked me what perek of gemara I was learning, and I said "Kol Kitvei Hakodesh". He replied that while that pronounciation was common in yeshivot, he had expected that at Jews' College it would be called "Kol Ketavei Hakodesh".

äîéãò äëìåì áäåãòú ãåà "ì æå äðå çñåé åñåãé. äîéãò îéåòã ìùéîåùå ùì äðîòï áìáã. à í ÷åøà äåãòä æå à éðå äðîòï, äððå îáéà éí ìéãéòúå ëé ëì äôöä, äòáøä à å äòú÷ä ùì úëúåáú æå à ñåøä áäçìè. à í úëúåáú æå äâéòä à ìéê áèòåú, äðê îúá÷ù ìééãò à åúðå áä÷ãí áãåà "ì, åìîçå÷ à ú ääåãòä îäîçùá ùìê. úåãä.



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