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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=383221922-13072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Good point. I assumed the usage current in the
Israeli army is correct: i.e., segen (first lieutenant) or segen mishne
(second lieutenant), but s'gan aluf (lieutenant colonel). But I suppose
that doesn't prove anything, does it? </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=he dir=rtl align=right>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org
[mailto:mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Elazar M.
Teitz<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 13, 2009 10:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
mesorah@aishdas.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei
Hovoteinu<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> What is the basis for the assumption that "s'gan" is
a mispronunciation? Even Shoshan, in his concordance, lists the
singular as "s'gan" in his heading. (The word appears in Tanach only in
the plural.)</P>
<P>EMT <BR><BR>---------- Original Message ----------<BR>From: âåãé÷ ùìîä
<Shlomog@iteam.co.il><BR>To: <mesorah@aishdas.org><BR>Subject: Re:
[Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu<BR>Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:17:31
+0200<BR><BR></P>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009>A colleague of mine at work suggested that the word
"p'sak" may be similar to the word "s'gan". That is, just as "segen" is
often mispronounced "s'gan" when not in s'michut (not in the army, but
just about everywhere else) because it is usually found in the s'michut
form, similarly "p'sak" should really be pronounced "pesek" when not in the
s'michut form. If so, p'sak din would be "pesek shel din" and
therefore in the plural and bismichut: "piskei din".
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009>By the way, any ideas why "segen shel k'huna" is
pronounced bismichut: "s'gan k'huna"? Contrast "beged shel k'huna"
which is pronounced in the smichut: "beged
k'huna".</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Simon Montagu
[mailto:simon.montagu@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 13, 2009 5:35
PM<BR><B>To:</B> âåãé÷ ùìîä<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei
Hovoteinu<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2009/7/13 âåãé÷ ùìîä <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:Shlomog@iteam.co.il">Shlomog@iteam.co.il</A>></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 1ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<P dir=rtl></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>A recent broadcast on
Israeli radio pointed out that the s'michut of words of binyan "ketel" differs
from that of binyan k'tal. The first binyan is of Tanachic provenance, while
the second is post-Tanachic and entered Hebrew under the influence of
Aramaic. </FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Not post-Tanachic: yekar, ketav, kerav and she'ar are all biblical,
and the last is used by Isaiah (She'ar Yashuv) and unlikely to be from Aramaic.
See <A
href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256">http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256</A><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> <FONT
face=David color=#000000 size=3> </FONT> </FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 1ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>The first group includes
words like "perek", "beged", "perach", and "peleg", and their s'michut in the
plural is "pirkei", "bigdei", pirchei", and "palgei".</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=he><FONT face="Guttman Yad-Brush" size=2><SPAN dir=rtl>
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
dir=rtl>The second group contains words like "p'ras", "p'gam", "p'rat",
and "k'lal", and their 'smichut forms are "p'rasei", "p'gamei", p'ratei", and
"k'lalei" (even though 99% of Israelis wrongly say "pirtei p'ratim"
instead of "p'ratei p'ratim").</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN dir=rtl>My question
is: at first glance, the words "sh'tar" and "p'sak" also belong to the second
group. But in the siddur we find the usage: "shitrei hovoteinu", not
"sh'tarei". Also I have never heard anybody say "p'sakei halacha"
(as opposed to "piskei z'man" for intermissions). Are these simply
examples of misuse of the language? Do S'faradim pronounce them
"sh'tarei" and "p'sakei"?.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial><SPAN dir=rtl>
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> The Spanish and Portuguese in London and New York do say "shetarei
hhovoteinu", though all other Sepharadi siddurim that I checked have "shitrei".
<BR><BR>On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Ira L. Jacobson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:laser@ieee.org">laser@ieee.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000080>A prime example is kitvei, which derives from
ketav. I don't think any authority finds fault with kitvei
haqodesh.<BR><BR></FONT>I remember that R EE Wiesenberg zt"l once asked me what
perek of gemara I was learning, and I said "Kol Kitvei Hakodesh". He replied
that while that pronounciation was common in yeshivot, he had expected that at
Jews' College it would be called "Kol Ketavei
Hakodesh".<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><O:P><SPAN dir=ltr
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