Re: <<Simanim seems to me to over-nach things.>> Did you ever consider that others may over-na' things? BTW, ben-Asher was not one of them. But, then, he lived before R' Yosef Kimhi invented new vowels that resulted in new rules and new na's. Think back to the days of "shiv'a m'lakhim marpim". k"t, David