[Avodah] Tochacha

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 11:35:50AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> That Halacha is limited to giving PUBLIC Tochacha
> This is clear in the Rama [608:2]
> And MBerrurah [608:8] -- 
> where he clearly declares
> one is obligated to offer Tochacha in private until the sinner [repents]
> hits or curses

Note that the case in the Rama that MB s"q 8 and 9 refer to in the Rama
has "shleo yishme'U". Whereas "aval beyachid", is about rebuking a yachid
- "lehokhichO".

The MB on this says that the two cases differ because with the masses,
it is okay to estimate that your words won't be heard, if it didn't
work the first time (or times -- the Rama writes "pa'am achas" but also
"lo yarbeh"). Whereas with an individual, you need the evidence of his
hitting or cursing you -- and the MB adds a yeish omerim: schold you --
before stopping.

It really seems that the the only time you continue until hit or cursed
(or scolded) is when an individual acting in private makes a mistake on
an issur explicit in the Torah. The Rama appears to be saying that unlike
with the masses, you shouldn't simply calculate that you won't be heard,
with an individual you need proof.

About the AhS, I think se'if 6 pretty clearly limits repeating the
tokhachah to cases where they are beshogeig and wouldn't want to sin,
and you have the Torah as clear proof that they are in error. They are
making a mistake so obvious, you cannot just guess they won't listen. And
yet still, he closes, even in this case, "mechyav lomar ulyyasram kamah
pe'amim... akh achar kakh, where he made a macha'ah a few times and it
didn't do anything -- yishtoq.

So the AhS is willing to take repeated failure as proof. Even if they
don't hit back.

Then in 7, and where it is bemeizid, lo shayakh lehodi'am... And he
invokes the gemara in Yavamos (65b).


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 28th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   4 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Netzach: What role does
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    domination or taking control play in building brotherhood?