[Avodah] Tochacha

Rabbi Meir G. Rabi meirabi at gmail.com
Mon May 13 18:35:50 PDT 2024

R Micha, I am sorry but I believe you are mistaken in saying -
Lehalakhah (MB 608:9) it is prohibited to offer tokhachah more than once.

That Halacha is limited to giving PUBLIC Tochacha
This is clear in the Rama [608:2]
And MBerrurah [608:8] –
where he clearly declares
one is obligated to offer Tochacha in private until the sinner [repents]
hits or curses

As for the various Gemaras that R Micha refers to
They are all addressed in the R Yona
All of them apply ONLY to someone who will not even listen to his Rosh
So you may have a Kasheh
But that is a Kasheh on Rabbenu Yona
And I believe we follow RYona in these matters

All this was posted before,
Please show Rishonim who disagree with the RY
We identified and offered a link and translation of that RYona some
previous posts back
So far I am unaware of any response on this chat that addresses this RYona
=  =  =  =

The ArHaShulchan R Micha quotes and translates
equally supports this perspective
Here is R Micha’s quote –
AhS, se'if 5
any mitzvah not spelled out in the Torah
no tokhachah not even once because "mutav sheyihyu shogegin".
those that are spelled out mochin beyadan.
Ve'im yodeia' she'ein devarav nishma'in
lo yomar BERABIM [my emphasis] lehokhichan raq paam echad.

And further R Micha quotes the AHaShulchan –
in se'if 6 "venir'eh li"
that when people think something is mutar,
if you know for sure they will not accept [the emes] from him, he should
stay quiet

I make the following observation:
The AHaSh [end 5] actually asks our Q -
the first ruling applies to Shoggeg but the latter refers to Meizid

The AHaSh is clearly referring to matters that are not Min HaTorah
As he explains in 6
And he is again referring to those who believe the rebuker is being a
that is the ONLY time a public rebuke is offered once and then no more
BUT he still maintains that PRIVATELY one must continue to rebuke

=  =  =  =
In the particular case of women eating erev YKippur without adding any time
to extend YK
It seems they are Shoggegim because they have a Minhag
from their mothers and Bobbes and many generations back
That they eat right until nightfall or Shkiah or whenever

They actually believe that the Rabbi rebuking them is being a Machmir,
overly zealous
THAT is why they are Shoggegim/Shoggegos
And NEVERTHELESS one must continue to rebuke them in private.

And because this is a public violation
The rebuke must be made in public
See BaEr Heitev [608:4] the public rebuke is to counter the desecration of
HaShems Glory
Not primarily to repair or heal the sinner

The continued private rebuke has another purpose –
Either or both to help the sinner
And to shore up the community posture and outrage over this violation even
if the sinner will not listen
If the sinner will not listen even to his Rosh Yeshivah,
Or if he hits or curses
Then presumably, we assume he is no longer a member of the community

See also ShHaTziyun [608:8] re the obligation to use force and penalties as
part of the rebuke
and that applies not only to the BeisD
but also to ANYONE who has the power to so act.

=  =  =  =  =

As for the SChassidim
I did not find R MIchas reference -
Beir Halakhah (s"q 2) cites the MA who in turn, cites Sefer haChassidim
The MAvraham brings it but it is in parenthesis and I am unsure of the
authenticity of such notes within the MAvrah
I believe the MBerruah or ShHaTziyun also quotes the SCh
But I did not find it.

Furthermore –
it is well known that RMoshe dismisses much, if not all of it as a fake
Secondly, we have no one who suggests that it ever eclipses Halachah
Third - lets have a look and see if we can make sense of what he is
actually saying
Here is a link – https://www.sefaria.org/Sefer_Chasidim.413.1?lang=bi

[My translation]
One who is certain that his rebuke will not be accepted
Ought not rebuke
So how do we understand that we are instructed to rebuke until cursed
[we asked this question earlier – what is the point of such a rebuke?]
This is referring to a situation where the relationship is close and
Like parents and children
in other words in such cases one must not permit one’s affection curb their
duty to rebuke
And rebuke sharply
But must continue to intensify the tone of the rebuke until the
relationship may be damaged
Where they hit, curse or insult [as per each opinion]

However with other people
Who will hate and [have the power] to harm
And if the rebuker intends to anger the sinner the sinner will harm the
There is no need to continue to rebuke.

It seems, at least to me
That he is concerned about people who have a history
Who will use the pretext of this Mitzvah
To get at, to hurt and insult the person they hate


Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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