[Avodah] mutav sheyihyu shogegim

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 01:59:21PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> I can't see how Mutav applies once we've ALREADY advised them of their
> misdeed, they are ALREADY Mezid if they repeat and Mezid if they do not
> repent [Bein ALaMakom] or do not make restitution [Bein ALeChaveiro].
> It seems that R Micha recognises this by proposing that there are DEGREES
> of Meized and with additional rebuke the sinners Meized-nedd is intensified.
> It would be helpful to know where this notion originates.

Recall the context of this conversation. You asked two questions. This
one was:
> Chazal explain, the repetitive terminology indicates 'even one thousand
> times'
> Why is this necessary? If one checks numerous Esrogim or blows countless
> Tekios, and all are Passul, might one think that the duty no longer exists?

So my answer was not my belief about the halakhah, but addressing what
the hava amina would be by tokhachah that wouldn't apply to checking
the 101st esrog.

And I said, someone could take "mutav sheyihyu shogegim" as a sliding
scale, and thus that extra rebuke that you know at this point would just
make the issur worse for them shouldn't be given.

But we both agree that is not the masqana of the halakhah.

Although I am not saying the element that got rejected was the premise
that shogeig is a sliding scale. Maybe it's that the quantitative
difference isn't enough reason to stay silent; you need a qualitative
difference.

I was also wondering about it from another angle -- the guy's hitting
you is another issur. So, it would seem that giving tokhachah that you
know won't be accepted is so important that even though you are goading
him into a lav -- one that was sufficient for a youthful Moshe to judge
someone a rasha! -- you still give the tokhachah.

That said, since the gemara severely limits the situations where tokhachah
is appropriate, given our skills at saying things the first time in a
way that would be heard, this case is not likely to come up.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 19th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       withdrawal and submission?