[Avodah] Does the psak of bet din evidence the ratzon hashem?

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 07:43:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> Here's another pertinent source. Rebbi Yochanan (Sanhedrin 34a) teaches
> that when tallying the votes of the Sanhedrin, if two dayanim darshan the
> same point of reasoning (ta'am) from two different pesukim, it is tallied
> as one vote, not two. Why? Abbaye explains: Because Hashem assigned each of
> His ta'amim to one drash alone. Whereas one [feature of a] posuk can
> produce many ta'amim, multiple pesukim were not designed to teach the same
> one ta'am. Rashi elaborates: we only count the vote as one because one of
> those pesukim is not meant to support this [ta'am], for we have it as well
> established that two mikraos were not written for one ta'am; therefore one
> of the dayanim is /in error./ (D'chad me'hanach kra'ei lav l'hachi assa,
> d'kayma lan lo nich't'vu shnei mikra'os l'ta'am echad, /hilkach chad
> mi'nayhu m'ta'a ta'i/.)

> In other words, Hashem had exclusive meanings in mind when he devised the
> posuk, and any other meanings are not His intended meanings of that posuk.
> And therefore, if two disagree over the posuk's meaning--even if they agree
> to the halachic outcomes--one of those dayanim is necessarily wrong.

The idea that each eilu has to be internally consistent and not involve
redundant derashos doesn't touch on the ve'eilu being internally consistent
and its set of derashos not being reduendant.

And therefore, two dayanim who darshen from two different pesuqim have the
same masqana, but are still in an eilu va'eilu because their sevaros cannot
be mutually asserted once we get down to the realm of pe'ulah, boolean logic
and "halakhah ke-". (According to Rashi.)

...
> In Drasha #3, the Ran cites another teaching of Chazal and says they
> darshaned that "even the words of he who /did not reach the emes/," were
> all told to Moshe b'Sinai." (Still without mentioning the concept of 49
> panim to each side, and not being as clear as the Tosefos Yom Tov about
> whether Moshe transmitted this information to the people.) ...
...

When this topic revived, the chaburah in my Zoom room had just completed
that derashah. (We should be starting derashah 4 next week, btw. Thursday
nights at 8pm EST.) So, it was with this Ran in mind that I spoke up!

Among the topic we've repeatedly debated is the use of the word "emes". As
in:

> working with the premises that (a) In any given case there is one true
> halachic reality, and contradictory halachos cannot exist, and (b) Hashem
> would not state that a falsehood is true; and evidently assuming the
> premises that (c) It was not "they" but Hashem by Whom both the emes shita
> and the sheker shita were told to Moshe, and (d) Hashem did not identify
> the false shittos as such, the Ran proposes that  although Hashem revealed
> the future machlokos to Moshe, He did not reveal which shita was the emes.

Or, "emes" here means the din the rabbim will vote on to be din. Which
explains (d) why Hashem didn't reveal the rejected shitos. To do so would
raise bechirah chofshi problems, which is why Hashem never reveals things
that would tell the outcome of future human decisions. It also explains
why Hashem would give both shitos not just for informative reasons, but
"kulam meiroe'h echad nitnum" -- the non-emes answer is equally from Moshe.

In fact, the Ran emphasizes the importance of both shitos coming miPi
haGevurah via Moshe (which would be a problem if I took (b) at face
value). And then the hakra'ah that was left in the hands of people.

    שכל התורה שבכתב ושבעל פה נמסרה למשה בסיני כמו שאמרו במגלה (דף יט) א"ר
    חייא בר אבין אמר רבי יוחנן מאי דכתיב ועליהם ככל הדברים מלמד שהראהו
    הקב"ה למשה כל דקדוקי תורה ודקדוקי סופרים ומה שסופרים עתידים לחדש
    ומאי ניהו מקרא מגלה. דקדוקי סופרים הם המחלוקת וחלוקי סברות שבין חכמי
    ישראל וכלן למדן מרע"ה מפי הגבורה. ושתהיה ההכרעה כפי הסכמת חכמי הדור.

R Shraga Simmons' translation (but I suggest the chevrah who got ???
for that quote see the original at the beginning of
https://www.sefaria.org/Derashot_HaRan.3.25 ):
    All of the Torah both the written and the oral was given to Moses
    on Sinai, as our sages have stated (Megillah 19b): "R. Chiyya b. Avin
    said in the name of R. Yochanan: 'From the verse (Deuteronomy 9:13)
    "and upon them according to all the words" we infer that the Holy
    One Blessed be He showed Moses all of the Torah's deductions and
    all of the scribes' deductions and what the scribes were destined
    to originate, namely, the reading of the Megillah.'" "The scribes'
    deductions are the disputes and differences of view among the
    Torah scholars and all of them were taught to Moses our teacher,
    may peace be upon him, by the Omnipotent One with the provision
    that the decision be according to the consensus of the sages of the
    respective generations.

Notice both opinions are called part of TSBP in the opening clause of
that quote. And that it's only the hakhra'ah via the consensus of the
chakhmei hador that differentiate them. Not that Hashem told Moshe all
the future wrong shitos.

...
> In his Hebrew translation of the Judeo-Arabic Mevo HaTalmud by Rav Shmuel
> ben Chofni Gaon, S. Abramson (Sinai 85, pp. 193-218) renders, by the words
> penn and panim, the author's reference to scenarios or cases. So this would
> mean that the angels, concerning each commandment in the Torah, showed
> Moshe forty-nine scenarios that, because of the particular element in each
> one, should be ruled permitted, and forty-nine scenarios each with a
> particular element that effects prohibition...

Or, 49 scenarios in which shitah X should be the one the chakhamim
are machri'im, and 49 senarios for the other. You are taking panim to
mean mutually consistent ideas that can apply in different cases. But
the whole context is one of machloqes. I would therefor broaden the
whole discussion. These are different shitos that conflict, and in
different mileaus, the chakhmei hador may be makhri'im for one shitah or
the other one.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is a stage and we are the actors,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but only some of us have the script.
Author: Widen Your Tent                  - Rav Menachem Nissel
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF