[Avodah] Takanos, Minhagim Gezeiros and Seyagim (Was: Amora Differing with Tanna)

[Rabbi Meir G. Rabi]

Thank you R Micha and R Zvi,

I have paraphrased your comments and added a couple of observations within
#...#.

If you could provide sources where there are 3? --???

1. Minhag: any act that the masses accept on their own, although not really
part of halakhah. It can only be altered by a ruling of a BD greater in
Wisdom and Number. RaMBaM Mamrim Ch 2.

#So it is obvious that it has been formally promulgated by an earlier BD,
and if not it has no standing. And it is obvious that if not revoked it
continues FOREVER.#

#If it is not promulgated by BD -- it seems it does not have the status of a
Minhag -- like wearing a Kippa or Kitniyos.#

'Minhag' ta'os, even though accepted but is predicated upon a mistake or a
misunderstanding should not be followed. #Applying the word Minhag here is
misleading as it never had formalisation of BD. Would we include Ashkenasim
not eating soft Matza?#

Any broadly accepted custom is called a minhag Yisrael, #DOES THIS INCLUDE
IF NOT FORMALISED BY BD? Is it possible that "it has most of the
stringencies of law"#??? Yarmulka and ma'ariv services are two examples of
a minhag Yisrael.

When a qehillah accepts the pesaq of Rav X, does it have any authority of
Minhag?? #Probably is simply enforced via social pressure, not necessarily
a bad thing but...#
Can it be described as Halacha when other Poskim rule differently??

Hanhagah tovah seems to be a made up term, RaMBaM does not use it. Same
with "minhag avoseihem." When Abayei wrote the people of Bavel about YT
Sheini, "Your ancestors followed non-binding minhag, and I am now turning
it into a binding." he did this without a BD, no?

#The RaMBaM [Mamrim 2:1] lists 3 plus One -- Gezeiros, Takanos and Minhagim
which cannot be altered other than by a BD greater in Wisdom and Numbers;
and Seyagim which CAN NEVER BE CHANGED.

He also says there something which many readers miss -- not only must it be
accepted by the VAST MAJORITY [in fact the RaMBaM writes ALL] but it must
be accepted IN ITS ENTIRETY -- UPashut KOL HaDavar BEKOL Yisrael. It seems
like a sharp warning to the BD not to make omnibus packages because if it
partially fails, if even just one small part of it is not accepted, then
the ENTIRE edifice is invalid.

Furthermore, it seems that every Halacha, EVEN HALACHA OF THE TORAH, lacks
some status if not broadly accepted by the community as we see from the
laws of Par HeElam Davar Shel Tzibbur -- Shegagos [13:1] at the end: the BD
is exempt from Chatos and the individuals who followed the BD Pesak must
bring their own Chatos because the Pesak was not accepted by the broad
community.

According to the Rambam, a gezeira cannot be overturned.??? It seems this
is only said about Seyag.

However, a gezeirah where the law's purpose is included in the legislation
is implicitly conditional on the purpose.???

The Tif'eres Yisrael (Ediyos 1), there are two sub-categories:
1. Siyag. Fence (Hebrew; "gezeirah" is Aramaic). Something that will lead
to a future violation such as the ban on mixing poultry and milk, lest
people become lenient in mixing meat and milk.
2. Cheshash. Concern. Cases where the threat of violation is in the current
situation, because one is in a circumstance where habit taking over or
other accident is likely.

 According to the Ta"z???, the law being violated will still be applicable
in most situations. It still must exist in some form. (Not every acharon
agrees with this requirement.)???



[Email #2, sent Mon, 6 Nov 2023 14:42:34 +1100.   -micha]

Seyag can NEVER be revoked even by a BD GREATER in Wisdom and Numbers
A Gezeirah can be revoked by a BD GREATER in Wisdom and Numbers



[Email #3, sent Mon, 6 Nov 2023 15:24:23 +1100.   -micha]

I see, your Q seems to be How does the BD determine what is a Seyag and
what is a Gezeirah?

I have no idea, those that they wanted to be irrevocable they made a Seyag
and those they wanted later BD to be able to revoke if they so wished, they
classified and promulgated as a Gezeirah

But are you asking WHY did they choose to have some like this and others
like that?
above my paygrade, sorry.

Best,
Meir G. Rabi