[Avodah] Proof of God's Existence?

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 04:56:08PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Some very interesting discussion (with pushback) concerning "knowing" that
> God exists.
> 
> https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/1075784

The concept of a Kuzari Principle a/k/a The Kuzari Proof bothers me.

As I understand Rihal, the point of the Kuzari cheleq 1 is that philosophical
proofs are of limited value. That having a mesorah is a more sure way of
knowing.

(FWIW, R Dr Sholom Carmy thought my understanding had merit.)
> 
> Rabbi Itamar Rosensweig-ויבין כל יצור כי אתה יצרתו: מלכויות, אמונה, תשובה

Here are my two usual quotes, since they haven't been on-list in a number
of years. Friedlander's freebie translation, touched up:

    1:13 The Chaver: That which you express is religion based on
    speculation and system, the research of thought, but open to many
    doubts. Now ask the philosophers, and thou wilt find that they do
    not agree on one action or one principle, since some doctrines can
    be established by arguments, which are only partially satisfactory,
    and still much less capable of being proved.

    1:63: The Chaver: Certainly. He [Aristotlte] exerted his mind,
    because he had no tradition from any reliable source at his
    disposal. He meditated on the beginning and end of the world,
    but found as much difficulty in the theory of a beginning as in
    that of eternity. Finally, these abstract speculations which made
    for eternity, prevailed, and he found no reason to inquire into the
    chronology or derivation of those who lived before him. Had he lived
    among a people with well authenticated and generally acknowledged
    traditions, he would have applied his deductions and arguments to
    establish the theory of creation, however difficult, instead of
    eternity, which is even much more difficult to accept.

Also, notice the framing. The King of the Khazars doesn't start by trying
to prove G-d. G-d and the idea that His Existence means something about
how to live are taken as givens. Religion is a given, the question
is which kind of worship - Christianity, Islam, whatever the Theist
Philosophers are teaching, or Judaism.

A snippet of 1:1:
    ... Yet he was so zealous in the performance of the Khazar religion,
    that he devoted himself with a perfect heart to the service of the
    temple and sacrifices. Notwithstanding this devotion, the angel
    came again at night and repeated: "Your way of thinking is pleasing
    to G-d, but not your way of acting." This caused him to ponder over
    the different beliefs and religions, and finally become a convert
    to Judaism together with many other Khazars. ...

Nowadays, the mesorah is so attenuated, I don't think Rihal's position
still works. OTOH, since Kant, we have other ideas about justifying
beliefs. Nearest the Rihal's is Reliabilism - trusting something you
got from a source that otherwise proved itself reliable. Or maybe the
first-hand experiences the religion creates. Not the aesthetics, but the
properties of the experience that one is making the aesthetic judgment
of being "elegant" or the like about. (The way mathemeticians manage
to largely agree about which proofs are beautiful.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If you're going through hell
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   keep going.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      - Winston Churchill
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF