[Avodah] Women Davening

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 11:31:30AM -0000, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> I agree with that when he comes out with a psak that matches the lenient
> position that the people are doing.  But that is not the case here.  His
> bottom line is to unequivocally makes women obligated in davening three
> times a day...

No, he says that's mistaber. And thus finds the MA's shitah surprising.
But it doesn't stop him from saying that the masses are indeed following
a dochaq peshat in Rashi and Tosafos, that he can defend, and that
according to the Rif and Rambam, are doing correctly. And thus that's
his masqanah, because he is giving accepted practice more weight than his
own legal arguments.

(Which I am sure would really bother RMR, given what he says in the
threads about pesaq and emes, but the AhS does that all the time.)

You started by asking how I ignored OC 106 and looked only at 89. But
you're insisting on a read of siman 106 that would have him contradicting
what he wrote in 109. When there is really no reason to.

Or, to put it another way, if you take what you called RYME's limud zekhus
in 106 as his masqanah, it explains why he gives that masqanah earlier in
hilkhos tefillah.

(Aside from my general but admittedly very subjective impression from
some 9 years of learning AhS Yomi that it doesn't fit his general style
to find limudei zekhus rather than either asking the tzibbur to change
or assuming we or the generations of rabbanim who watched us "must hold"
something else.)

> A) There is a Torah positive mitzvah not dependent upon time - so women are
> of course obligated.
> B) there are, as there usually are with Torah mitzvot, loads of Rabbinic
> mitzvot surrounding the Torah mitzvot.
> C) Maybe those Rabbinic mitzvot mentioned in B) don't apply to women?

Which are shehazman gerama, and therefore women aren't obligated in
the rabbinic additions.

> (i) How about kashrut such as meat and milk: the Torah only prohibits
> cooking meat with milk, eating cooked meat with milk, and benefit from
> cooked meat with milk - and does not apply this to chicken...

Nothing about an asei or a zeman, so not a parallel.

> (ii) How about Shabbat - where women are obligated in the Torah positive
> mitzvot of Shabbat because of shomur v' zochur.  Rav Moshe Feinstein did
> some fancy footwork to enable women at home to be able to eat while waiting
> for their husband to get home from kiddush.  But all of that is unnecessary.
> Kiddush, at least on Shabbat morning, is d'rabbanan...

But would still be part of the general rule about Shabbos, being a blend
of asei and lav, being different. Even for "zakhor", which is asei only.
Just as per women being mechuyavos in the deOraisos that are mitzvos
asei shehazman gerama, they would be mechuyavos in the deRabbanans.

> (iii) How about Pesach...

Ditto.

Which is how the AhS concludes what he writes when opening his discussion
of the chiyuv: women are mechuyavos to daven, but not the zeman gerama
addition of a specific liturgy because those are at secific times of day.

Nothing to do with deOraisa vs. derabbanan add-ons.

Side note: One can disagree with the Magein Avraham. (RYME does more
often than not.) But if you think his statement leads to ridiculous
conclusions, isn't it far more likely you didn't get the full depth of
his shita than he made a silly mistake?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
http://www.aishdas.org/asp    'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
Author: Widen Your Tent       'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l