[Avodah] Gezeira Against Cloth Sukkos?

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 05:35:05AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> AhS Yomi recently hit OC 630:32, in hilkhos Sukkah.
>> If I understand correctly, ... the Tur assumes there is a
>> gezeira in the gemara against using cloth for Sukkah walls
>> even if they are tied down. Because too many don't stay tied.

> I did not see this in the gemara, but I looked in the Tur and the AhS, and
> I see no mention of "gezeira" at all...

Except that the Tur says (besheim Rabbeinu Peretz) that you may not
use the Sukkah even if the cloth is tied down tight. (Unless you have
rigid pieces that are a lavud-laden halachic wall without the cloth.)
And the Taz, which is why I mentioned the Taz...

>> he says that one can rely on the Taz for a single cloth wall
>> only "bemaqom tzorekh".

> If something is allowed (or not) for one wall, the halacha would be the
> same for the other walls too, no? Why on earth would someone allow a
> substandard wall for only one side of the sukkah but not two sides? The

This is exactly why I thought "gezeira". If it were advice, then you
can second-guess advice if the motivation doesn't apply. And yet the
Tur naysays the idea even if you tied it down well. But if it is a pesul
derabbanan, then it could well exist or have parameters that go beyond
the taam.

Altoghether, the treatment smells like a gezeira based on avoidaing a
risk, and not "merely" advice to not do something risky. To my mind,
so much so, I didn't even notice the reasoning step that got me there.

Admittedly Rabbeinu Peretz (whom the Tur is quoting) doesn't say "assur"
or "pasul" but "eino nakhon".

OTOH, the Taz says "chaishinan d'mintiqa". Not that one is avoiding a
possibility (e.g. "shema mintiqa"). Cheshash is a language I associate
with gezeiros. (Or gezeira-like minhagim, I guess.)

Also, there is a reason why one wall would be okay -- a Sukkah only needs
two real walls. Perhaps the bit that isn't flapping in the wind is too
likely to be a tefach to worry about the third semi-wall being pasul too.

But this isn't the Taz's reasoning. The Taz says that if the person
tied it well, why would the Sukkah be a problem? Therefore, "vetzarikh
lomar debekhol hamechitzos hikhmir".

As I said, that seems to be someone setting up an issur, not discussing
odds.

...
> Again, I didn't notice any difference between the Tur, Taz, and AhS on this
> issue. It seems to me that according to all of them, if the mechitzos can
> stand up to a common wind, and there is no (reasonable) chance of getting
> accidentally untied, then there's no problem.

Actually, they all seem to take for granted that chaishinan (whether you
buy my subconscious diyuq or not) that there is no way to make sure the
Sukkah remains tied down for the whole YT. At least, the Taz would say
if it's all the walls, and the AhS, if it's one of the main 2 walls.


A lichtikn un freilechn Chanukah!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Strength does not come from winning. Your
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   struggles develop your strength When you go
Author: Widen Your Tent      through hardship and decide not to surrender,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger