[Avodah] Gezeira Against Cloth Sukkos?

[Akiva Miller]

.
R' Micha Berger asked:

> AhS Yomi recently hit OC 630:32, in hilkhos Sukkah.
> If I understand correctly, ... the Tur assumes there is a
> gezeira in the gemara against using cloth for Sukkah walls
> even if they are tied down. Because too many don't stay tied.

I did not see this in the gemara, but I looked in the Tur and the AhS, and
I see no mention of "gezeira" at all. It is all advice and suggestions on
how to build one's sukkah properly.

Here's my translation of the relevant section of the Tur (siman 630 near
the end):

"One who makes his sukkah among the trees, and the trees are its walls, it
is kosher, provided that he ties the branches of the trees so that the wind
will not move them, for any mechitza which can't stand up to a common wind
is not a mechitza. R' P' wrote that therefore, it is improper to make all
the mechitzos from yerios of pishtan without reeds, even if they are tied
well, because sometimes they get untied accidentally, and it becomes a
mechitza which can't stand up to a common wind. [If] someone wants to make
[his sukkah] out of sadinim, it would be good to weave reeds into the
mechitzos, less than 3 [tefachim apart]."

The first thing that occurred to me here is that he is distinguishing
between two different kinds of fabric walls: "yerios of pishtan" and
"sadinim". I do not know what the exact difference is between them, but
then I realized that it doesn't matter, because both are fine if they have
reeds, and both are "improper" if they don't have reeds.

AhS 630:32 seems to say the exact same thing. It's all about whether you
can secure the mechitzos well enough that they can stand up to a common
wind, and whether or not there is a chance of getting accidentally untied.

> he says that one can rely on the Taz for a single cloth wall
> only "bemaqom tzorekh".

If something is allowed (or not) for one wall, the halacha would be the
same for the other walls too, no? Why on earth would someone allow a
substandard wall for only one side of the sukkah but not two sides? The
obvious answer to me is that the single cloth wall would indeed be pasul,
but he would still be left with a three-walled kosher sukkah.

> So, would the AhS have a problem with the ubiquitous canvas
> Sukkah? If not, why not?
> I was thinking that maybe this was leshitaso with chalav
> Yisrael; maybe his derekh is to be quite strict on gezeiros
> even / especially when it looks like batlah taam.

Again, I didn't notice any difference between the Tur, Taz, and AhS on this
issue. It seems to me that according to all of them, if the mechitzos can
stand up to a common wind, and there is no (reasonable) chance of getting
accidentally untied, then there's no problem.

Another thought to ponder: My understanding is that gezeiros remain in
force even when batlah taam. Yet we do seem to find cases where batlah taam
seems to justify ignoring the gezeira. I suggest that in such cases, it was
not a real gezeira to begin with. It was an instruction of a lesser degree,
perhaps mere advice, such that one can decide the case on its merits,
without worrying about violating a Gezeira D'rabanan.

On a more practical matter, concerning what RMB refers to as "the
ubiquitous canvas Sukkah". Today's canvas walls are not tied with ropes and
knots. They are MUCH more secure than that. Even if there really is a
gezeira against <<< yerios of pishtan without reeds, even if they are tied
well, because sometimes they get untied accidentally >>>, perhaps such a
gezeira simply doesn't apply to most modern sukkos.

Akiva Miller
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