[Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of the Earth (and eilu v'eilu)

[Zvi Lampel]

On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 12:22 PM Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> [RH] 110a:
>
> R Yehoshua says that Hashem created trees about to bring
> forth fruit. Which is what one would expect of trees created in spring.
>
> R Eliezer that everything was created fully formed, so the fruit was
> ready to be picked, closer to Sukkos /Chag haAsif.
>
> ...
> In other words, I think version 1 of this machloqes should be framed as
> being about whether Hashem created things in infancy, and thus in Nissan
> when the tree starts its cycle of growth, or fully developed, and thus
> in the fall.
>

Nice!

>
> > 2 These Tannaim are not speaking at all about physical seasons and
> > climates, but about the middah in which Hashem decided to have the
> > world run, Tishrei signifying din and strict justice, Nissan signifying
> > rachamim...
>
> With my suggested framing, it is easier to see the two approaches as
> related. Not that I have details about what that relationship would
> be. Infants rely on Rachamim (rechem / Av haRachaman)... Adults have
> a past for Din to respond to - but that's only real adults, not
> structurally adult newborns. As I said, I am just smelling hints of
> where they would be related.
>
> > Tosafos (RH 27a) poses a contradiction in the piyyutim of R. Elazar
> > HaKalir. He says that in the Geshem piyyut recited on Shemini Atzeres, R.
> > Kalir states that the world was created in Tishrei aligning with Rebbi
> > Eliezer), whereas in his piyyut for Pesach he states that the world was
> > created in Nissan (aligning with Rebbi Yehoshua).
>
> > Tosafos answers that Rabbeinu Tam said "Eilu VeEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim."
> > He then adds: "And one may say that in Tishrei the thought rose to
> > create, but it wasn't created until Nissan." I think it is more likely
> > that the second statement is an explanation of the first, rather than
> > an alternate one.
>
> "Hayom *haras* olam" -- RH as the day the world was "conceived", 6 months
> before it was actually "born".
>

I thought of that, too.

>
> > But it occurred to me that we know that Tosafos (Chagigah 13a)
> > considers R. Eliezer HaKalir to be the Tanna Eliezer, son of Shimon
> > bar Yochai. What is Tosafos' meaning, then, by the words "eilu v'eilu
> > divrei Elokim Chaim? ...
>
> That bas qol was about Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai. And yet, BH stil
> taught shittas Beis Shammai first. (And not just as a foil, a hava
> amina to upshlug as a buttress to their own position.) Seems to me one
> is supposed to hold eilu va'eilu even when you are one of the eilu! A
> tanna has the anavah necessary to accept that there is truth to the
> other tzad too.
>

True, but as I read it, the two "eilu"'s are Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi
Yehoshua. R. Elazar (Hakalir) is the one, according to Rabbeinu Tam, saying
eilu v'eilu regarding their opinions and offering a third one that tweaks
them.

>
> You and I have discussed here in the past what eilu va'eilu even means
> when the machloqes is about a historical statement in Tanakh. But that's
> not what you're asking here. It is just making it harder for me to
> imagine what it being asked of R Eliezer..


I don't follow what you mean. Do you mean what is being asked (by me) of R.
Elazar HaKalir as per Rabbeinu Tam?
.

> ..And Tosafos's image of R Elezer haKalir must have accepted that he was
> playing Beis Shammai's role in this machloqes.
>

nolo comprende...

>
> Seems to me we "hold like" R Yehoshua -- the world was created in Nissan.
> That's what your closing sentence implies to me:
> > One problem that remains, however, is that I have not been able to find
> > any piyyut in our machzorim, Geshem on Shemini Atzeres or otherwise,
> > that says anything about the world being created in Tishrei!


I was just wondering what Tosafos' source was. In my mind, without much
basis, I thought we hold like Rabbeinu Tam's tweak--that Rebbi Eliezer was
right in the sense of the "thought," but Rebbi Yehoshuja was right in the
sense of the actual creation. With "Hayom Haras Olam" supporting this, as
you said.

My son Yehoshua tells me the Ritva on RH 27a says that Rav, being a Tanna
who could argue against other Tannaim, composed the Rosh HaShana tefillah
and poskened like Rebbi Eliezer against Rebbi Yehoshua.

>


> Even as "the veldt knows" Maaseh Bereishis was the last week in Elul,
> and RH is Adam's birthday. (And so much for the aggadita in AZ about
> Adam's holiday in December, which depends on the cheit of eating from
> the Eitz haDaas having happened when days were shrinking. My standard
> devar Torah for the Shabbos nearest Dec 25th...)
>

AZ 8a says Adam was concerned the days were shortening because of his sin.
This could have been months after he committed it.

Zvi Lampel
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