[Avodah] Piyyutim of HaKalir Regarding the Creation of the Earth (and eilu v'eilu)

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Oct 02, 2022 at 06:07:20PM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> Rebbi Eliezer (RH 10b) states the world was created in Tishrei, whereas
> Rebbi Yehoshua states the world was created in Nissan. (Rosh HaShannah
> 10b.)

> 1. The machlokes is over whether, when Hashem placed the astronomical
> bodies, such as the sun and stars, in their places on the 4th day, He
> placed them in relation to the earth in the way they are in the Fall or
> the Spring. So that Adam found himself in the Fall or the Spring.

The same baalei pelugta, on 110a:

R Yehoshua says that Hashem created trees about to bring
forth fruit. Which is what one would expect of trees created in spring.

R Eliezer that everything was created fully formed, so the fruit was
ready to be picked, closer to Sukkos /Chag haAsif.

(And that could well tie this machloqes to the statement in Bereishis
Rabba 14:7 <https://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.14.7> about how
Adam and Chavah were created with the forms of 20 year olds. And thus
implying that Adam indeed had a navel <grin>. There R Yehudah ben Simon
says that Adam ("Ofer Olam") was created "melei'aso", R Elazar bar Shimon
adds that Chavah too was created "melei'asah". And R Yochanan said both
were created with the forms of 20 year olds.)

In other words, I think version 1 of this machloqes should be framed as
being about whether Hashem created things in infancy, and thus in Nissan
when the tree starts its cycle of growth, or fully developed, and thus
in the fall.

> 2 These Tannaim are not speaking at all about physical seasons and
> climates, but about the middah in which Hashem decided to have the
> world run, Tishrei signifying din and strict justice, Nissan signifying
> rachamim...

With my suggested framing, it is easier to see the two approaches as
related. Not that I have details about what that relationship would
be. Infants rely on Rachamim (rechem / Av haRachaman)... Adults have
a past for Din to respond to - but that's only real adults, not
structurally adult newborns. As I said, I am just smelling hints of
where they would be related.

> Tosafos (RH 27a) poses a contradiction in the piyyutim of R. Elazar
> HaKalir. He says that in the Geshem piyyut recited on Shemini Atzeres, R.
> Kalir states that the world was created in Tishrei aligning with Rebbi
> Eliezer), whereas in his piyyut for Pesach he states that the world was
> created in Nissan (aligning with Rebbi Yehoshua).

> Tosafos answers that Rabbeinu Tam said "Eilu VeEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim."
> He then adds: "And one may say that in Tishrei the thought rose to
> create, but it wasn't created until Nissan." I think it is more likely
> that the second statement is an explanation of the first, rather than
> an alternate one.

"Hayom *haras* olam" -- RH as the day the world was "conceived", 6 months
before it was actually "born".

> But it occurred to me that we know that Tosafos (Chagigah 13a)
> considers R. Eliezer HaKalir to be the Tanna Eliezer, son of Shimon
> bar Yochai. What is Tosafos' meaning, then, by the words "eilu v'eilu
> divrei Elokim Chaim? ...

That bas qol was about Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai. And yet, BH stil
taught shittas Beis Shammai first. (And not just as a foil, a hava
amina to upshlug as a buttress to their own position.) Seems to me one
is supposed to hold eilu va'eilu even when you are one of the eilu! A
tanna has the anavah necessary to accept that there is truth to the
other tzad too.

You and I have discussed here in the past what eilu va'eilu even means
when the machloqes is about a historical statement in Tanakh. But that's
not what you're asking here. It is just making it harder for me to
imagine what it being asked of R Eliezer.



Seems to me we "hold like" R Yehoshua -- the world was created in Nissan.
That's what your closing sentence implies to me:
> One problem that remains, however, is that I have not been able to find
> any piyyut in our machzorim, Geshem on Shemini Atzeres or otherwise,
> that says anything about the world being created in Tishrei!

Even as "the veldt knows" Maaseh Bereishis was the last week in Elul,
and RH is Adam's birthday. (And so much for the aggadita in AZ about
Adam's holiday in December, which depends on the cheit of eating from
the Eitz haDaas having happened when days were shrinking. My standard
devar Torah for the Shabbos nearest Dec 25th...)

And Tosafos's image of R Elezer haKalir must have accepted that he was
playing Beis Shammai's role in this machloqes. Or maybe simpler, those
piyutim were written, but simply didn't survive in our machzorim.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 People were created to be loved.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Things were created to be used.
Author: Widen Your Tent      The reason why the world is in chaos is that
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    things are being loved, people are being used.